OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Trickytreesreds]

C’mon guys, let’s not lose sight of the facts and what’s been said here.
Ram59...I haven’t said ‘the whole of the EU are singing from the same hymn sheet’, I said they’re doing a better job of ‘speaking with one voice/providing a united front’ than our single disunited Government.
Your points about Brexit not being a ‘defined standard’ and ‘different people accepting different levels of Brexit’ is though, imo, an example of you absolutely hitting the nail on the head.
You are so right...twenty months on we still don’t know what type (‘defined standard’) or ‘level of Brexit’ we are dealing with or aiming for, so how could the referendum of June 2016 have any credibility and doesn’t it just show that, having got ourselves into the current mess, there has to be some sort of free vote once the consequences are actually known?

MA, if you believe press reports of the Cabinet being ‘agreed’ you’ve been away from the UK for too long.
There are at least four members of that Cabinet - Gove, Leadsom, Johnson and Fox - who all covet the role of PM. That doesn’t take into account the Rees Mogg supporters. May, Hammond and Rudd have more in common with moderate Labour than the right wing of their own party and the post referendum behaviour of Gove and Johnson would have put Machiavelli to shame. They are anything but ‘agreed’ or ‘united’ and as such, as they prove on an almost daily basis, are unfit to lead the country in these negotiations.

Well put Ramanag, but flawed.

Your stance on no one agrees on what type of Brexit is on offer(be it Tory or Labour). Is irrelevant when you factor in the EU conditions.
I hear the Sourbrys/Abbotts of the world and the Sturgeons, keep talking about access to the customs union as a priority.
Yet the EU has made its stance perfectly clear. You want access to the customs union, then you'll-
1. pay up
2. accept free movement
3. accept European law
4. Have no say in where we go from here.

Perfectly clear to me, it's OUT MEANS OUT THEN.

[AdiSalisbury]

Whilst brexit is not a defined standard, couldn't the same be said of future eu membership? Who knows where the EU will end up?

This, is what is constantly neglected by our biased media (disappointingly, I include the bbc as biased) and a major defining factor in many leave votes.

[ramAnag]

Whilst brexit is not a defined standard, couldn't the same be said of future eu membership? Who knows where the EU will end up?

I think that too is a very fair point. I’ve never disputed that the EU has its faults but what was wrong with remaining and trying to bring about change? We are, or were, a big player in the EU...one of the big three...so why not? It has to make more sense than the disabling political and economic uncertainty that has gone on since the referendum.

Tricky, anyone who likens Soubry’s views to those of Abbot, is not really in a position to describe my opinions as ‘flawed’. They are as far apart as the PM and her Foreign Secretary.

[Trickytreesreds]

I think that too is a very fair point. I’ve never disputed that the EU has its faults but what was wrong with remaining and trying to bring about change? We are, or were, a big player in the EU...one of the big three...so why not? It has to make more sense than the disabling political and economic uncertainty that has gone on since the referendum.

Tricky, anyone who likens Soubry’s views to those of Abbot, is not really in a position to describe my opinions as ‘flawed’. They are as far apart as the PM and her Foreign Secretary.

Ramanag, with respect. I labelled Sourbry and Abbott as someone who are pro remainers/want to stay in the EU/ free movement/ customs union. One is just a selfish idiot, the other is an anti white racist with the intelligence of a baboon.

You didn't answer what I saying. We can scream for a good deal and demand to know which way we are going to tumble, until we are blue in the face.
The facts are, the EU openly says, no deal with the customs union unless you accept Fees/free movement/laws/ no say in policy.
As far as I'm concerned, no deal is better than a bad deal. The whinger's seem happy to get a good bum raping, if we have to leave.

Don't play their game. There is enough rumblings now coming out of Europe, as to punish the UK will hurt them badly.
Rotterdam is already hiring extra personnel to deal with it. WHY?
Because British trade for the rest of the world can go through Rotterdam first, before being shipped around the world. This distorts and clouds the figures of EU trade as it proportioned to the EU first. (Not a lot of people know that). ;-)

https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/

Hold your nerves, the deficit is greatly stacked against the EU.
THIS LASS TALKS SENSE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sZUnXyfogw

[Andy_Faber]

This, is what is constantly neglected by our biased media (disappointingly, I include the bbc as biased) and a major defining factor in many leave votes.

I hate to say it as a lifelong BBC advocate, but they (at least news/current affairs) have become increasingly Remain/young/diversity biased, as if they value people less the further they are from Broadcasting House.

[Andy_Faber]

In fact we didn’t know what was being voted for, and we still don’t.

But do we as individuals or or as a collective (nation/whatever) EVER know what the future holds when we make a decision? For that matter R, what sort of Remain did you vote for? Who knows what the EU will look like in ten years - could be stronger, could be weaker, could be a thing of the past, I voted for what I considered the best of two unknowns, so did you, so did we all. At least we were offered a choice.

[ramAnag]

But do we as individuals or or as a collective (nation/whatever) EVER know what the future holds when we make a decision? For that matter R, what sort of Remain did you vote for? Who knows what the EU will look like in ten years - could be stronger, could be weaker, could be a thing of the past, I voted for what I considered the best of two unknowns, so did you, so did we all. At least we were offered a choice.

But not an informed one and arguably not one ‘we’ were capable of making...that is the point...and I voted for the sort of ‘Remain’ that would have kept us at the centre of decision making in Europe.

[Ram59]

But not an informed one and arguably not one ‘we’ were capable of making...that is the point...and I voted for the sort of ‘Remain’ that would have kept us at the tre of decision making in Europe.

Us at the centre of decision making in Europe, you've got to be kidding!

[Andy_Faber]

But not an informed one and arguably not one ‘we’ were capable of making...that is the point...and I voted for the sort of ‘Remain’ that would have kept us at the centre of decision making in Europe.

.....which we never have been. In some areas we massively punch above our weight, but UK has been seen as the 'black sheep' by the EU bureacracy from day 1, we were never a good fit - opt-outs here, rebates there, own currency throughout, the only thing that mollified EU (the machine) was the massive wad of money UK contributed. That IMO is why they are so sore with us.

The frustration in all this, and its a bit like DCFC I guess, is that a UK govt firing on all cylinders would have made ten times the job of negotiations than the current hamstrung collective are.

[ramAnag]

Us at the centre of decision making in Europe, you've got to be kidding!

You can’t have it both ways Ram59. The Brexiteers accept that, along with Germany and France, we are (were) the big three in Europe, you argued that the French, Germans, Dutch and Italians would all go the same way as us - they haven’t, you argue that the EU needs us more than we need them. Given all that, apart from the fact that our loudest voice in Europe was that of Farage (Mr Negative Self Interest himself), why wouldn’t they have listened to us? Hardly desperate for us to leave are they?

[ramAnag]

You can’t have it both ways Ram59. The Brexiteers accept that, along with Germany and France, we are (were) the big three in Europe, you argued that the French, Germans, Dutch and Italians would all go the same way as us - they haven’t, you argue that the EU needs us more than we need them. Given all that, apart from the fact that our loudest voice in Europe was that of Farage (Mr Negative Self Interest himself), why wouldn’t they have listened to us? Hardly desperate for us to leave are they?

When was the last time we had a ‘Uk govt firing on all cylinders’, Andy...sometime between 1997-2005 I’d suggest. Anyway, shouldn’t you be somewhere singing ‘Flower of Scotland’ as a forfeit?

[Andy_Faber]

When was the last time we had a ‘Uk govt firing on all cylinders’, Andy...sometime between 1997-2005 I’d suggest. Anyway, shouldn’t you be somewhere singing ‘Flower of Scotland’ as a forfeit?

Never but I've learned there are times when its not worth getting into a ruckus. A Scotland win means way more than an England win in the Faber household overall.

Yes part of that period was pretty good, there have been a few others, and few more hamstrung than now

[Ram59]

You can’t have it both ways Ram59. The Brexiteers accept that, along with Germany and France, we are (were) the big three in Europe, you argued that the French, Germans, Dutch and Italians would all go the same way as us - they haven’t, you argue that the EU needs us more than we need them. Given all that, apart from the fact that our loudest voice in Europe was that of Farage (Mr Negative Self Interest himself), why wouldn’t they have listened to us? Hardly desperate for us to leave are they?

You misinterpret quite a few things there Anag. Economically we are 1 of the big 3 in the EU, however this is not reflected in our position of influence within the EU. This is as a result of us not being in the euro, something I concede we were warned about by pro euro supporters back in the 90s. Having said that, everyone agrees now that we made the right decision to stay out of the euro.

Financially, in strict money terms the EU has more to lose than us with any non agreement, although this figure represents a smaller proportion of their overall finances. So, I concede that an agreement is more important to us than them. However, as a result of a hard brexit, the EU will not suddenly have access to any more markets like we will. So a hard brexit can only do damage to eu companies. Whereas new opportunities will present themselves to British companies which MAY make up for or even exceed the losses from the EU.

The EU seem hellbent on punishing us as opposed to working with us on this matter. Is this to prevent other countries wishing to follow suit? There's only the Dutch who are in a similar position to us, every other country would have too much to lose.

[ramAnag]

At a time when stupidity appears to be returning to the forum elsewhere in twin forms I honestly find our exchanges quite reassuring.
Tbh, when this debate started you and I were diametrically opposed and seriously antagonistic. We still disagree I know, but I respect your point of view and I think you’ve come to respect, at least some of, mine.
We seem a lot closer in our interpretation of the implications of Brexit than was once the case. I continue to think we’ve made a huge mistake and I’d suggest the ‘punishment’ aspect derived from us (UK) walking away from something we had promised to be committed to and then being perceived as trying to ‘cherry pick’.
Imo that is still the case and I think that, along with our disunited Government’s shambolic attempt at negotiation, that remains an enormous problem. Perhaps they should take a leaf out of our book and try listening to, rather than just shouting at, each other.

[MadAmster]

Is this to prevent other countries wishing to follow suit? There's only the Dutch who are in a similar position to us, every other country would have too much to lose.

Just the Dutch? Macron said recently that he was of the opinion that an EU referendum in France would say "non" to the EU and the French are net receivers of money. There is a swell of "nein" thinkers in Germany since Merkel decided to let in more than 1 million refugees. The assaults on "western" women haven't been as widespread as they have been in Sweden but there have been sufficient to stir up the locals.