OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Manofpride]

Always coherent and reasonable Andy, but it’s just not true to say you ‘haven’t wavered’.
You’ve gone, apparently, from voting ‘Remain’ to ‘seeing the light’ a day later and becoming a supporter of Brexit in its less extreme form since then...until recently when you have spoken in favour of voting for the only one of the three major Parties to be united in their total opposition to Brexit.
You can dress it up anyway you like and hide behind the notion of there being ‘more to politics than Brexit’. That is indeed true, but just about everything in British/European politics at present comes down to the future of the EU and our relationship with it. To consider and even advocate voting for Vince Cable and the LibDems in such circumstances clearly represent the thoughts of a ‘waverer’...and very pleased I am to see it.

One is allowed to change one's mind after seeing the light. After all remainers are hanging on to the hope that there will be another vote and that Brexiteers will change their mind. It ain't going to happen though!

[Geoff Parkstone]

It may not happen that hard core brexiteers will change their vote, but actually all it needs to swing is for some of the previously apathetic youth remainers to get out of bed and vote - now that they realise that their cosy lifestyle may be disrupted.

Then this whole colossal farce will end and we will be wiping egg off our face for years, have wasted billions on planning in both the public and private sector, and become the whipping boy of Europe as they will see we cannot even work out how to quit.

Give up Brexit now and we will have 50 years of persecution and be ridden roughshod over by EU. The bureaucrats will simply tell us to do it and we'll have to, our threat of leaving having been blown.

Grim days ahead if our bluff is called and we stay, for sure.

[ramAnag]

One is allowed to change one's mind after seeing the light. After all remainers are hanging on to the hope that there will be another vote and that Brexiteers will change their mind. It ain't going to happen though!

Absolutely MoP...’one is allowed to change one’s mind after seeing the light’...and after vocalising his support for Vince Cable and the Lib Dems it would seem that this is what Andy has done.
Intelligent people change their minds to adapt to changing circumstances...I would suggest that this is what many are currently doing as the extent to which they were misled by the Brexit campaign continues to emerge.

Parky, you always did have a reputation of being a little bit of a staff room curmudgeon, but what is it with you and young people?
It’s their future that’s being threatened and the comforts that you and I could - and maybe have - taken advantage of and taken for granted that is now in jeopardy.
‘50 years of persecution’ if we rethink Brexit...utter tripe! Why?

[Geoff Parkstone]

Statistics suggest that the younger generation were (a) mainly remainers and (b) the biggest apathetic group of all as regards voting. I add (a) and (b) and consider that if they got off their idle arses and voted, then we wouldn't be on you pathway to hell. In other words in a second referendum remain would win regardless of turning any brexiteer voters.

My second conjecture is simple. If that happens and we in fact remain, we as a nation will have lost all credibility within the EU. We will probably lose all the concessions that Thatcher obtained re funding, anything Cameron might have got would go. The annual cost of remaining would escalate, but, more disturbingly, since we will have demonstrated a total inability to back ourselves, the remaining members would just take the piss when we come back with tail between legs saying "we didn't mean it Sir".

The future would then proceed with all concessions gone and noone taking us seriously. Our opt out rights on a lot of the crap they try to shovel on us would be eroded and gradually the Borg would assimilate us as pure Eurocitizens. it is one of the comforts of impending death that someone of my age faces that I probably won't be assimilated.

[ramAnag]

Statistics suggest that the younger generation were (a) mainly remainers and (b) the biggest apathetic group of all as regards voting. I add (a) and (b) and consider that if they got off their idle arses and voted, then we wouldn't be on you pathway to hell. In other words in a second referendum remain would win regardless of turning any brexiteer voters.

My second conjecture is simple. If that happens and we in fact remain, we as a nation will have lost all credibility within the EU. We will probably lose all the concessions that Thatcher obtained re funding, anything Cameron might have got would go. The annual cost of remaining would escalate, but, more disturbingly, since we will have demonstrated a total inability to back ourselves, the remaining members would just take the piss when we come back with tail between legs saying "we didn't mean it Sir".

The future would then proceed with all concessions gone and noone taking us seriously. Our opt out rights on a lot of the crap they try to shovel on us would be eroded and gradually the Borg would assimilate us as pure Eurocitizens. it is one of the comforts of impending death that someone of my age faces that I probably won't be assimilated.

So make all referendums as compulsory as possible. That is what is done in other countries...even with elections in some.
If you really want to discover the ‘will of the people’ that is what has to happen and to win there must be a majority of more than 50% of the electorate...what is wrong with that?

Just can’t see the other bit Geoff. Do the EU want us to leave? Absolutely not. In fact possibly the only good thing about the referendum is that, having come this close to upsetting the proverbial apple cart, we could conceivably be in a stronger bargaining position.
The EU wants to include the UK. Many, not just Brexiteers, want change. The UK referendum has stimulated questioning about the nature of the EU within other countries...Netherlands, Germany, France and Italy for starters.
I don’t personally like the form that many of those questioners take however I do recognise the need for change, and isn’t it just possible that by ‘returning’, despite both sides having to eat some ‘humble pie’, we could just be in a position to both pick up the continued benefits and lead change within the EU rather than be destructively isolated from it?

[Geoff Parkstone]

I agree with making voting compulsory 100%

I cant agree that we would be welcome back with open arms with a few more concessions on offer though. I see the exact opposite with opportunist Big Europe factions seeing us as weak and indecisive and trying to push through more pan Europisation. For all our sakes, should this eventuality happen, I hope you read it better than I.

[ramAnag]

I agree with making voting compulsory 100%

I cant agree that we would be welcome back with open arms with a few more concessions on offer though. I see the exact opposite with opportunist Big Europe factions seeing us as weak and indecisive and trying to push through more pan Europisation. For all our sakes, should this eventuality happen, I hope you read it better than I.

Maybe we need a referendum to decide whether voting in referenda should be compulsory.

[Andy_Faber]

isn’t it just possible that by ‘returning’, despite both sides having to eat some ‘humble pie’, we could just be in a position to both pick up the continued benefits and lead change within the EU rather than be destructively isolated from it?

No. You've spent too much time listening to John Lennon's 'Imagine'.

[ramAnag]

No. You've spent too much time listening to John Lennon's 'Imagine'.

Not sure I get the reference. I’m not being idealistic about what’s happening and I have remained consistent.
The Brexitears tell us that the EU is desperate for our contribution. It’s clear they don’t want us to leave so why the hell would they penalise us if there was another vote against leaving?

[Manofpride]

Not sure I get the reference. I’m not being idealistic about what’s happening and I have remained consistent.
The Brexitears tell us that the EU is desperate for our contribution. It’s clear they don’t want us to leave so why the hell would they penalise us if there was another vote against leaving?

I think if we tried to crawl back I think that they would see us as a pathetic weak Country RA that they could trample on, of course they'd want us back we're their backbone.
The British public made their decision and it is now up to the politicians to try and get the best deal for it's peoplec before we leave!

[ramAnag]

I think if we tried to crawl back I think that they would see us as a pathetic weak Country RA that they could trample on, of course they'd want us back we're their backbone.
The British public made their decision and it is now up to the politicians to try and get the best deal for it's peoplec before we leave!

So that’s what the Referendum achieved...we’ve gone from, in your words, being the ‘backbone’ of the EU to running the risk of being perceived as a ‘pathetic weak country’. Brilliant! What an achievement by, not the ‘British public’ but...well you know the percentage by now.

[Andy_Faber]

Not sure I get the reference. I’m not being idealistic about what’s happening and I have remained consistent.
The Brexitears tell us that the EU is desperate for our contribution. It’s clear they don’t want us to leave so why the hell would they penalise us if there was another vote against leaving?

You are the forum ideallist but I was thinking more the dreamer bit - 'if' the referendum hadn't been called, 'if' the population had been better informed, 'if' the will of the people could be ignored, 'if' another referendum could be called - I voted as 'remain' as you did but unlike you, none of those have ever occurred to me as viable

And I now genuinely believe that 'they' (the EU institution) aren't bothered whether we leave or not, they just don't want to see our net contribution leave.

PS the above doesn't alter my opinion that 'we' (our govt) are making a right balls up of the whole think and that 'we' (our oppositions) are making an even bigger balls up of holding the govt to account.

[MadAmster]

You are the forum ideallist but I was thinking more the dreamer bit - 'if' the referendum hadn't been called, 'if' the population had been better informed, 'if' the will of the people could be ignored, 'if' another referendum could be called - I voted as 'remain' as you did but unlike you, none of those have ever occurred to me as viable

And I now genuinely believe that 'they' (the EU institution) aren't bothered whether we leave or not, they just don't want to see our net contribution leave.

PS the above doesn't alter my opinion that 'we' (our govt) are making a right balls up of the whole think and that 'we' (our oppositions) are making an even bigger balls up of holding the govt to account.

Surely, the biggest problem that the "opposition" has here is that they accept the vote to leave and any criticism of the Government will be on HOW rather than WHETHER. If seen to be blocking the Tories at every turn, Labour would collapse at the next general Election IMO.

[ramAnag]

You are the forum ideallist but I was thinking more the dreamer bit - 'if' the referendum hadn't been called, 'if' the population had been better informed, 'if' the will of the people could be ignored, 'if' another referendum could be called - I voted as 'remain' as you did but unlike you, none of those have ever occurred to me as viable

And I now genuinely believe that 'they' (the EU institution) aren't bothered whether we leave or not, they just don't want to see our net contribution leave.

PS the above doesn't alter my opinion that 'we' (our govt) are making a right balls up of the whole think and that 'we' (our oppositions) are making an even bigger balls up of holding the govt to account.

Lol...you really have misinterpreted me and I’m really not...I’m actually much more of a glass half empty hard bitten realist which does me few favours.
Maybe looking back forty or fifty years I was an idealistic dreamer but the responsibilities of work and parenthood, amongst other things, rapidly kicked all that out of me.
The one thing I may have, along with many others including you, is an acute sense of right and wrong. Haven’t always lived up to it sadly, but it’s not about me and the ‘what ifs’ you refer to are, imo, observations that are entirely practical and objections that are completely objective.

I continue to question the following...
1) The Referendum was originally introduced to settle a Tory Party squabble and remains a source of Tory infighting which has nothing to do with the national interest.
2) The Brexit campaign was dominated by lies, misinformation and the breaking of electoral rules. Under such circumstances why should we follow the result which over 60% of the electorate have never voted for?
3) The nation is becoming increasingly paralysed, in political, social and financial terms, as a result of the uncertainty that surrounds Brexit. There are more than enough business leaders, who certainly know more about such matters than me, who are increasingly opposed to Brexit. I’d rather listen to them than any number of half baked, hypocritical, back stabbing politicians whose prime motive is one of self interest.

Does that sound like idealism to you? I don’t think so but...unlike you it increasingly seems...I do know where I stand.
As July slips into August...who will you be voting for this month?

[Andy_Faber]

Surely, the biggest problem that the "opposition" has here is that they accept the vote to leave and any criticism of the Government will be on HOW rather than WHETHER. If seen to be blocking the Tories at every turn, Labour would collapse at the next general Election IMO.

yes agreed but I don't think they are doing that very well