OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Andy_Faber]

Don’t quite follow this ‘can you explain to RA’ strategy of yours, Andy.
Don’t recall ever doubting how much time and effort business has had to spend on preparing for every eventuality.
But I’ll endeavour to explain to you...my despair is at quite how much time and money has had to be spent on such negative and wholly avoidable preperations by both business and politicians.

I share your despair its been a ****up from minute 1, BUT if everyone (politicians, business men, placard warriors, forum posters) had been united in recognising that 'Brexit means Brexit' and 'making it work' we would be in a better position for the challenge ahead

[ramAnag]

I share your despair its been a ****up from minute 1, BUT if everyone (politicians, business men, placard warriors, forum posters) had been united in recognising that 'Brexit means Brexit' and 'making it work' we would be in a better position for the challenge ahead

Ah, I see...so if we’d all got behind an act of self harm in the first place, which you voted against and recently conceded is quite likely to make us poorer, then everything would be so much better and the current mess is all the fault of the 63% who didn’t vote ‘Leave’.

[Andy_Faber]

Ah, I see...so if we’d all got behind an act of self harm in the first place, which you voted against and recently conceded is quite likely to make us poorer, then everything would be so much better and the current mess is all the fault of the 63% who didn’t vote ‘Leave’.

I think our respective outlooks, Pragmatist v idealist, doer v dreamer, means we'll just keep disagreeing.

[ramAnag]

I think our respective outlooks, Pragmatist v idealist, doer v dreamer, means we'll just keep disagreeing.

Really? Good spot!
You forgot consistent v fence sitter not to mention the fact that a second Referendum - which you always said would never happen - appears to be getting ever closer.
I wouldn’t say you were that much of a ‘dreamer’ .

[swaledale]

I share your despair its been a ****up from minute 1, BUT if everyone (politicians, business men, placard warriors, forum posters) had been united in recognising that 'Brexit means Brexit' and 'making it work' we would be in a better position for the challenge ahead

One flaw in that proposition, well more than one really, but the BIG one is that those very people who have and continue to promote Brexit, have conveniently forgotten all the very big lies that were told about how easy it would be to achieve and how it would be perfectly possible to leave a club due to dislike of certain rules and regulations and paying the membership fee and keep access to the bits they did like.

Quelle Surprise when this wasn't the case!

IF those politicians who so trumpet how marvellous brexit is, had firstly come forward with a clear coherent plan as to for Brexit and secondly stepped forward and taken responsibility for it, then you might have a point.

But what we continually get, is a useless pillock -Davies, who from all accounts couldn't negotiate his way out of a paper bag and didn't either spend the time or when he was doing so completely pissed off the other side and hadn't a clue what he was doing. Johnson a self serving disingenuous waffler, who loves making bold statements but has no substance behind them and Rees-Mogg who snipes from the sidelines.

Farage ****ed off to cosy up to Trump whilst shamelessly trousering the MEP salry and the pension - funny he hates the EU but happy to take their shilling, and disappears completely after his *******s has contributed to this mess - lets not forget his atrocious poster showing non eu migrants supposedly pouring into the country!

The latest laugh is those Farmers who voted to leave but then suddenly complain that a) a lot of their product is exported to the EU and second the government isn't long term going to pour moeny in subsidies to them - oops what a conflict their 1950's isolationist views contradict their economic needs!

So is the principle of an a completely independent state (lets be real here though, we wont be, it will be an illusion, because we will now be obliged to cosy up to other countries in order to do trade deals, which might mean being overlooking some of the ways those countries operate, or being obliged to join in conflicts that aren't ours) worth the economic chaos it will cause us?

[Andy_Faber]

One flaw in that proposition, well more than one really, but the BIG one is that those very people who have and continue to promote Brexit, have conveniently forgotten all the very big lies that were told about how easy it would be to achieve and how it would be perfectly possible to leave a club due to dislike of certain rules and regulations and paying the membership fee and keep access to the bits they did like.

Quelle Surprise when this wasn't the case!

IF those politicians who so trumpet how marvellous brexit is, had firstly come forward with a clear coherent plan as to for Brexit and secondly stepped forward and taken responsibility for it, then you might have a point.

But what we continually get, is a useless pillock -Davies, who from all accounts couldn't negotiate his way out of a paper bag and didn't either spend the time or when he was doing so completely pissed off the other side and hadn't a clue what he was doing. Johnson a self serving disingenuous waffler, who loves making bold statements but has no substance behind them and Rees-Mogg who snipes from the sidelines.

Farage ****ed off to cosy up to Trump whilst shamelessly trousering the MEP salry and the pension - funny he hates the EU but happy to take their shilling, and disappears completely after his *******s has contributed to this mess - lets not forget his atrocious poster showing non eu migrants supposedly pouring into the country!

The latest laugh is those Farmers who voted to leave but then suddenly complain that a) a lot of their product is exported to the EU and second the government isn't long term going to pour moeny in subsidies to them - oops what a conflict their 1950's isolationist views contradict their economic needs!

So is the principle of an a completely independent state (lets be real here though, we wont be, it will be an illusion, because we will now be obliged to cosy up to other countries in order to do trade deals, which might mean being overlooking some of the ways those countries operate, or being obliged to join in conflicts that aren't ours) worth the economic chaos it will cause us?

I don't disagree with most of that, my point is different, and that is that every Remainer who who's life's work has been to work towards a reversal of the decision has contributed to post-Brexit UK being weaker than it would otherwise be.

[ramAnag]

I don't disagree with most of that, my point is different, and that is that every Remainer who who's life's work has been to work towards a reversal of the decision has contributed to post-Brexit UK being weaker than it would otherwise be.

Blimey Andy...make your mind up!
Swale’s post is, imo, correct in every thing he says. Didn’t expect you to agree with it but you apparently do - ‘I don’t disagree with most of that’ - and then in the very same sentence you start blaming the ‘Remainers’ again!
I know I’ve criticised the number and rapidity of mind changes you’ve made before, but you simply can’t keep blaming those of us who have consistently opposed Brexit for the current chaos. It isn’t us who set the UK on a self destructive course towards being worse off and more isolated.

[MadAmster]

IMO we are headed for NO DEAL with all that entails. Both imports and exports will be more expensive for both the EU and the UK.

[swaledale]

I don't disagree with most of that, my point is different, and that is that every Remainer who who's life's work has been to work towards a reversal of the decision has contributed to post-Brexit UK being weaker than it would otherwise be.

I take a different view, i think by and large most are trying to achieve a result that recognises the referendum result whilst minimising the negative impact on the country - a difficult task given that the Brexiteers made no mention of the negative impacts of leaving the EU and have seemingly refused to acknowledge there will be any since the vote.

May for all her faults is in an impossible position trying to appease a Tory party which is clearly more interested in the pursuit of ideological agendas than governing the country, something the largely Tory media would be crucf theywere in power.

So tolay the blame for the current state of affairs is wide of the mark, if leavers were prepared to compromise on thier suicidal and unrealistic vision of "crashing out" of the EU, whilst maintaining the benefits that they like - then we would probably be closer to a solution.

Instead there is no clear idea about what leave means - other than the ideological purists who don't seem to care what the negative impact will be and certainly have no intention of enlightening those who voted leave as to the effect on them.

Untangling 40 years of close political, regulatory and economic ties was never going to be easy and its pure recklessness and utter lies to say that it is as Johnson, Farage, Rees-Mogg and Davies have claimed in the past.

[Manofpride]

I don't disagree with most of that, my point is different, and that is that every Remainer who who's life's work has been to work towards a reversal of the decision has contributed to post-Brexit UK being weaker than it would otherwise be.

I agree with that! Once the the vote to leave was won Brexiteers and remainers should have all got behind Brexit and all worked together for the best way forward to leave the EU. Remainers losing the vote just came out scare mongering to try and turn the vote they lost. I think leaving without a deal is the way. We voted leave so let's leave.

[Andy_Faber]

I agree with that! Once the the vote to leave was won Brexiteers and remainers should have all got behind Brexit and all worked together for the best way forward to leave the EU. Remainers losing the vote just came out scare mongering to try and turn the vote they lost. I think leaving without a deal is the way. We voted leave so let's leave.

I'd forgotten this thread existed

Pleased you understand it, but there are too many Remainers (and TV Channels ahem BBC) that don't, or do and can't get over themselves

[ramAnag]

I agree with that! Once the the vote to leave was won Brexiteers and remainers should have all got behind Brexit and all worked together for the best way forward to leave the EU. Remainers losing the vote just came out scare mongering to try and turn the vote they lost. I think leaving without a deal is the way. We voted leave so let's leave.

Then you are horribly, horribly wrong and part of what I hope is a very small minority.

Brexit has never had the support of more than a minority of the electorate...FACT.
The campaign was based on a pack of lies...FACT.
The Brexiteers appear to have broken electoral law...FACT.
Preparation for the stockpiling of medicines and food...the use of an airport as a lorry park...the likely paralysis of motorways in SE England...the collapse in the value of the £...the murder of Joe Cox and today’s abuse and intimidation of Anna Soubry by far right Brexiteers is not ‘scare mongering’ it is...FACT.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Yeah but Swales done OK out of it, and so has this new ferry company with no ferries that's being run by a guy I know...

[MadAmster]

Then you are horribly, horribly wrong and part of what I hope is a very small minority.

Brexit has never had the support of more than a minority of the electorate...FACT.
The campaign was based on a pack of lies...FACT.
The Brexiteers appear to have broken electoral law...FACT.
Preparation for the stockpiling of medicines and food...the use of an airport as a lorry park...the likely paralysis of motorways in SE England...the collapse in the value of the £...the murder of Joe Cox and today’s abuse and intimidation of Anna Soubry by far right Brexiteers is not ‘scare mongering’ it is...FACT.

Brexit has never had the support of more than a minority of the electorate...FACT. More voted Leave than voted Remain. That was enough for Leave to carry the day under the rules of the referendum and the vast majority of people DID understand that. It was classed as an advisory vote but Cameron had made it clear that the Tories would follow whichever point of view gained the most votes. The most amazing thing to me is that they actually kept to that "promise". FACT

The campaign was based on a pack of lies...FACT. Indeed, BOTH campaigns were guilty of this. FACT

The Brexiteers appear to have broken electoral law...FACT. Appear, yes. Nothing proven as yet..... the rich (read the Tories) want Brexit to have been realised before anything gets proved in Law as, once out, the new EU Laws against tax evasion/avoidance will NOT apply to the UK. FACT

Preparation for the stockpiling of medicines and food...the use of an airport as a lorry park...the likely paralysis of motorways in SE England...the collapse in the value of the £...the murder of Joe Cox and today’s abuse and intimidation of Anna Soubry by far right Brexiteers is not ‘scare mongering’ it is...FACT. Not sure on this. Are these measures no more than a contingency because they don't know if there will be a problem or not? What we don't know is whether a Remain vote would have tipped someone else over the edge and have a different MP killed. The intimidation of Anna Soubry is, to me, just wrong.

What is the best of the current options?

No deal and using WTO tariffs will, according to some, be catastrophic. Others say it will be worth several billions to the economy. I don't know enough of the intricacies to pass judgment.

A deal would see the UK:
1. Still in a/the Customs Union
2. Freedom of movement would still be in force
3. The Irish backstop could see the UK bound by EU law but not involved in the making of that Law for an indeterminate amount of time, maybe permanently.

I also think that leaving with the May deal will see riots on the street due to 1 and 2 above. The current yellow vest problems in France will, unfortunately, look like an afternoon in the kindergarten compared to what I fear will happen in the UK.

[ramAnag]

Brexit has never had the support of more than a minority of the electorate...FACT. More voted Leave than voted Remain. That was enough for Leave to carry the day under the rules of the referendum and the vast majority of people DID understand that. It was classed as an advisory vote but Cameron had made it clear that the Tories would follow whichever point of view gained the most votes. The most amazing thing to me is that they actually kept to that "promise". FACT



The campaign was based on a pack of lies...FACT. Indeed, BOTH campaigns were guilty of this. FACT

The Brexiteers appear to have broken electoral law...FACT. Appear, yes. Nothing proven as yet..... the rich (read the Tories) want Brexit to have been realised before anything gets proved in Law as, once out, the new EU Laws against tax evasion/avoidance will NOT apply to the UK. FACT

Preparation for the stockpiling of medicines and food...the use of an airport as a lorry park...the likely paralysis of motorways in SE England...the collapse in the value of the £...the murder of Joe Cox and today’s abuse and intimidation of Anna Soubry by far right Brexiteers is not ‘scare mongering’ it is...FACT. Not sure on this. Are these measures no more than a contingency because they don't know if there will be a problem or not? What we don't know is whether a Remain vote would have tipped someone else over the edge and have a different MP killed. The intimidation of Anna Soubry is, to me, just wrong.

What is the best of the current options?

No deal and using WTO tariffs will, according to some, be catastrophic. Others say it will be worth several billions to the economy. I don't know enough of the intricacies to pass judgment.

A deal would see the UK:
1. Still in a/the Customs Union
2. Freedom of movement would still be in force
3. The Irish backstop could see the UK bound by EU law but not involved in the making of that Law for an indeterminate amount of time, maybe permanently.

I also think that leaving with the May deal will see riots on the street due to 1 and 2 above. The current yellow vest problems in France will, unfortunately, look like an afternoon in the kindergarten compared to what I fear will happen in the UK.

Nothing you or anyone else says can disguise the fact that 63% of the electorate did not vote for Brexit which was in any case only ever advisory. So...the ‘advice’ was that 37% of the electorate wanted to withdraw from the EU...that is a ‘minority’ whichever way you look at it so...yes...it is a FACT.

You’re probably right, both sides lied...but the two biggest lies that probably led to the most support were the £350m to the NHS ‘battlebus’ one and the ‘these negotiations are going to be easy’ one. Was the electorate misled...YES.

Leaving the tax avoidance issue to one side for a moment...shouldn’t we assess whether electoral law was broken by the ‘victors’ before ploughing on regardless? Even in the all too often corrupt world of football if a team was found guilty of fielding ineligible players there would be a rematch or a points discussion.

Finally...are you seriously suggesting that we shouldn’t do what is right for the country because the far right and the more extreme Brexiteers will riot if they don’t get their way? Doesn’t sound like you ‘Amster...that really would be giving in to the lowest common denominator of mob mentality.