OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

We run the risk of going round in circles again, MoP, but it seems unfair to me to dismiss all those who couldn’t/didn’t vote as sitting on their ‘fat arses’. Doubtless some couldn’t be bothered but there may have been many other genuine reasons.

Either way you’re wrong on two counts...as I said - and I know you and NF don’t want to hear it - the majority of the UK’s people did not vote to leave. To say otherwise is just untrue.
No one ever voted for a ‘no deal’ Brexit...it was all going to be so ‘easy’...so what Johnson - if he gets ‘elected’ - is now considering he has absolutely no mandate for.

[MadAmster]

Isn't all the posturing round the result a bit lame?

Here are a few facts.

1. yes, the legal status was "only" advisory.
2. Cameron said whichever "side" of the argument got the most votes, THAT is what he would make sure got done.
3. Leave polled 4% more votes then Remain.
4. Leave polled roughly 1.5 Million more votes than Remain.
5. Cameron, a remainer, felt he couldn't negotiate properly on something he didn't agree with so he fell on his sword.
6. In the subsequent leader/PM election, another Remainer won, Mrs May.
7. To strengthen her hand she called a snap general Election, both Tory and Labour fought it on a Leave platform.
8. May's bluff backfired and she had to join an alliance with the DUP and she failed to get her deal through Parliament.
9. She has now resigned and another leadership election is ongoing.

My comment:
As I've said before, IMO her aim was to either sort a deal that would lead to no Brexit OR to BRINO (her "deal") in which we would only be out of the decision making process but in everything else including monthly payments on top of the £39Bn dicorce bill.

I don't rate Hunt one iota but, in this 2 horse race he is way the better choice. The other candidate is a nasty piece of work, IMO, who will do a lot for the 1% and the multinationals and very little for the 99%.

[Andy_Faber]

No one ever voted for a ‘no deal’ Brexit..

Sorry to disappoint you RA, but the majority of those who voted leave DID vote for a no deal Brexit by virtue of voting to leave the EU and then letting the lol politicians wrap up the paperwork. This subject was discussed at length on Radio 4 (NOT part of the news/current affairs offering, so more objective IMO by a massive amount) and the independant body who did the analysis (sorry don't recall who it was so you'll have to trust me like you trust Swale) followed this line of reasoning pretty scientifically and convincingly, and it was precisely the lack of objective detail available of what 'Brexit' meant that determined Leave (and for that matter Remain) voters' decision. The same body also warned against EITHER side of the debate calling for a second referendum, their adjusted outcome prediction being pretty much the same as the original ref but with a margin of error that could swing the decision either way. In essence, and no sleight intended, the apparent clamour for a referendum was driven by (my words) 'a smaller number of people shouting more loudly and more eloquently'

[AngryRam]

Doesn’t matter how often you say it MoP...a majority of the UK’s people didn’t even vote ‘Leave’ let alone for a ‘no deal’ Brexit.

Christ on a bike.. Change the record.

[ramAnag]

Sorry to disappoint you RA, but the majority of those who voted leave DID vote for a no deal Brexit by virtue of voting to leave the EU and then letting the lol politicians wrap up the paperwork. This subject was discussed at length on Radio 4 (NOT part of the news/current affairs offering, so more objective IMO by a massive amount) and the independant body who did the analysis (sorry don't recall who it was so you'll have to trust me like you trust Swale) followed this line of reasoning pretty scientifically and convincingly, and it was precisely the lack of objective detail available of what 'Brexit' meant that determined Leave (and for that matter Remain) voters' decision. The same body also warned against EITHER side of the debate calling for a second referendum, their adjusted outcome prediction being pretty much the same as the original ref but with a margin of error that could swing the decision either way. In essence, and no sleight intended, the apparent clamour for a referendum was driven by (my words) 'a smaller number of people shouting more loudly and more eloquently'

Really not a question of ‘trust’, Andy.
I tend to agree with Swale’s comments about Brexit more than anyone else’s. I feel he is well informed and although I don’t always agree with the way he says things, unless he’s having a go at me that’s his business not mine.
I also take notice of what you write but, imo, you are much more undecided. You usually see both sides of the argument but ultimately seem very reluctant to make your mind up and in this case...I think you have to.

I take no sleight from you and intend none, but I do think you’re wrong about the thoughts of ‘the majority who voted Leave’.
Not sure what percentage of the electorate actually listen to Radio 4 but, at the time of the Referendum, we were repeatedly told via various media sources and by Fox and Johnson in particular, that working things out would be amongst the ‘easiest deals ever’.
It was costed by those responsible for the ‘Leave’ campaign and of course we will all remember the ‘Boris bus’ pledge regarding how much of our new found wealth we’d be able to spend on the NHS.

As it happens all three of those attractive ‘facts’ put out by the ‘Leave’ campaign have proved to be false. I’m sure some of those who voted ‘Leave’ couldn’t care less and just want ‘out’ under any circumstances, equally I suspect those with more sense will be more cautious and recognise that a ‘no deal Brexit’ was never what was offered and is likely to be enormously damaging to our country and its reputation.

[Manofpride]

Can we agree that we are never going to agree on Brexit. The thing is it's going to happen, with or without a deal.
Knowing that wouldn't it be better that we all get on board with this, after all leaving the EU was the final verdict.

Now lets get the ball rolling to making some great deals and making the UK a better and more prosperous place to live!

[AdiSalisbury]

Statement of fact: The majority of the public did not vote to remain within the EU.

Remoaners: yeah but, no. but, yer but they wud ov done innit yeh na yea.

[ramAnag]

Can we agree that we are never going to agree on Brexit. The thing is it's going to happen, with or without a deal.
Knowing that wouldn't it be better that we all get on board with this, after all leaving the EU was the final verdict.

Now lets get the ball rolling to making some great deals and making the UK a better and more prosperous place to live!

Yep...we can agree that you and I are never going to agree about Brexit.

Yep...we can certainly agree that we share the desire to make the UK a ‘better and more prosperous place to live’.

Nope...sorry...can’t agree that Brexit is the way to do anything other than make things worse so, until it’s done and dusted - and the fat man with dodgy hair and even dodgier morals has sung - I’ll be hoping it wasn’t the ‘final verdict’.

Adi...you’re right! Another statement of fact...the majority of the British public did not vote to leave the EU either.

[AdiSalisbury]

Ha... glad you got the humour!

So... does that mean we should be in or out based on proportionate representation? We both know the answer, Lampard's on his way out!

[Andy_Faber]

Really not a question of ‘trust’, Andy.
I tend to agree with Swale’s comments about Brexit more than anyone else’s. I feel he is well informed and although I don’t always agree with the way he says things, unless he’s having a go at me that’s his business not mine.
I also take notice of what you write but, imo, you are much more undecided. You usually see both sides of the argument but ultimately seem very reluctant to make your mind up and in this case...I think you have to.

I take no sleight from you and intend none, but I do think you’re wrong about the thoughts of ‘the majority who voted Leave’.
Not sure what percentage of the electorate actually listen to Radio 4 but, at the time of the Referendum, we were repeatedly told via various media sources and by Fox and Johnson in particular, that working things out would be amongst the ‘easiest deals ever’.
It was costed by those responsible for the ‘Leave’ campaign and of course we will all remember the ‘Boris bus’ pledge regarding how much of our new found wealth we’d be able to spend on the NHS.

As it happens all three of those attractive ‘facts’ put out by the ‘Leave’ campaign have proved to be false. I’m sure some of those who voted ‘Leave’ couldn’t care less and just want ‘out’ under any circumstances, equally I suspect those with more sense will be more cautious and recognise that a ‘no deal Brexit’ was never what was offered and is likely to be enormously damaging to our country and its reputation.

I enjoy your retorts even if they do get a bit 'repetitive'

I have one question that I've been repeatedly asking some of the big hitters of a pro-remain facegbook group I troll, and I hope you can offer a better response than they can:

When UK leaves EU, what are you going to do about it? As ever, please take this at face value, I'm not trying to score a point, I'm genuinely intrigued.

Incidentally, on a really trivial level, I AM aware of one person who was brave enough to carry through his threat to leave UK if it voted to leave. My guitar-totin' mate Shawn moved into an abandoned house in Bulgaria last week. Conviction politics at its rawest

[ramAnag]

Tbf the whole issue is repetitive so it’s difficult not to be. I still believe what I’ve believed for the last three plus years, some would say ‘repetitive’, others ‘consistent’. I banged on for years about Apartheid and Nelson Mandela in the ‘70’s...look what happened.

What am I going to do about it? If and when it happens I’ll deal with it I suppose and hope for the best.
I honestly believe we’re all going to be worse off for - as a 65 year old - probably the rest of my life.
I also have a son and two grandchildren who are resident in Europe. Depending on what happens there are likely to be consequences for them especially if we leave on unfriendly and recriminatory terms.

So...hope for the best...look out for those I care for...hope there’s such a thing as Karma (and that it catches up with Farage and his backers) and just bloody get on with it.

[Andy_Faber]

hope for the best...look out for those I care for... and just bloody get on with it.

Following the line of questioning, why didn't you decide on that approach on 24/6/2016?

[ramAnag]

Strange question...because I thought, as I still do, that the country had made a huge and damaging mistake and that there was time to bring about change.
I still hope for a way out via a second referendum...yes I get the paradox...but if and when the decision is taken it becomes a bit like serious illness doesn’t it? All that’s left is jfdi...and hope.

[Trickytreesreds]

Tbf the whole issue is repetitive so it’s difficult not to be. I still believe what I’ve believed for the last three plus years, some would say ‘repetitive’, others ‘consistent’. I banged on for years about Apartheid and Nelson Mandela in the ‘70’s...look what happened.

What am I going to do about it? If and when it happens I’ll deal with it I suppose and hope for the best.
I honestly believe we’re all going to be worse off for - as a 65 year old - probably the rest of my life.
I also have a son and two grandchildren who are resident in Europe. Depending on what happens there are likely to be consequences for them especially if we leave on unfriendly and recriminatory terms.

So...hope for the best...look out for those I care for...hope there’s such a thing as Karma (and that it catches up with Farage and his backers) and just bloody get on with it.

Morning RA.

This is not a personal dig, but more an analysis of your personal situation.
The point being, does membership of the EU hit you personally?

From what you've told me.
You live in a rural sweet derbyshire area, low crime/density/population
At your age, employment stress is not an issue?
Housing/social services/schools not suppressing your family


You have a son and grand kids abroad? Can understand why free movement suits you. But really? Are you saying that all Europeans here are in for unfriendly/discriminatory treatment? Why should that be the case for your family?
You make it sound like we are going to be North Korea and every visitor will have to have government approval and an official "Shepard".

Like I say, it isn't a knock at you. It's a point of view from your position.
I think you need to look further down the ladder socially, to people in this country who find all of the above a burden on their lives.

[ramAnag]

Okay Tricky...I don’t think you’re making a ‘personal dig’ and yes I’m fortunate to live in what many would consider a nice place in rural Derbyshire.
Not sure what that’s got to do with anything. As a matter of fact, between us my wife and I trained for eight years before entering full time employment - always for the State - for about another sixty six or so years, so I reckon we’ve paid our dues and in any case the Derbyshire Dales is solidly pro ‘Leave’ so ironically I find myself as ‘out of step’ around here as I do amongst you, MoP, Adi and the angry man.

Holidays apart, and a likely increase in the cost of living, you’re right...probably the most direct impact that Brexit is likely to have on me is with regard to my son and two grandchildren so that is a concern but, and you may find this odd, I have never been one to just vote for what is best for me. If I had been I’d probably have voted Tory for the last few years...something I’ve never done and never intend to.

As for your comments about housing, social services and education...I believe that Brexit will make our country poorer for the foreseeable future. If that happens how on earth are resources to the three areas you have mentioned going to improve?

With regard to the family comment...I don’t think all Europeans have received unfriendly or discriminatory treatment here since the Referendum but some certainly have and, in the immediate aftermath of the Referendum, I found the behaviour of a minority of Leavers towards people of conspicuously immigrant origin to be utterly objectionable.
That is not really my fear though. The people in the place where my son lives have always been very friendly and the state system very supportive. Should we leave on unfriendly terms though I do wonder how long that situation will last.