OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

I thought the argument/debate on here was relatively civil until Del Boy and his sidekick started making it personal and behaving like halfwits.
It may or may not have changed minds but it did at least encourage thought and many including Swale, MA, GP, mista and yourself have made good points.
There are four entrenched Leavers on here...MoP, Adi, AngryRam and Tricky, two - possibly three - committed Remainers...Swale, myself and possibly mista, while most of the rest are, imo, somewhere in between and largely undecided.
For my part I haven’t had a cross word with either Adi or MoP throughout so it hasn’t been all bad...take it off if you like Andy...you’re the ‘boss’ and it’s MoP’s thread but the argument has been changed by Rees-Mogg and the ERG’s assertion about the very lengthy likely recovery period after Brexit and that question really hasn’t been answered.

[swaledale]

Time for the mods to take this Brexit thread off, a good few on here got on but it's not about the person anymore. Remainers think that everyone who voted leave are ****s and leavers know the reamainers are ****s.

No one likes change but it has to happen.

Not true, change happens all the time and thats a good thing, however it is generally true that its a good idea to understand and know what the proposed change will bring and also to look very carefully at the people who are proposing the change, try to understand what their agenda is and what they are saying will result from that change.

With Brexit - those leading the charge are clearly untrustworthy, have an ulterior agenda, have been deliberately misleading, obtuse, vague and have no clear plan or even a ****ing clue what it will achieve beyond vague words and slogans and a strange belief that despite all the evidence to the contrary everything will be alright in the end.

I doubt any Brexit supporter would willingly let a surgeon operate on them who told them

"well I can't be sure what the outcome of the operation will be for you, but lets be optimistic, you will be in a different position to what you are now, could be better, could be worse, but hey lets operate and see how it turns out"

Yet they are willing to swallow the lies bull**** and untruths spouted by a rich right wing **** like Farage, who is funded by shady right wing rich people who stand to gain financially from Brexit to the obvious detriment of the general population. Further more its apparently wonderful to take back control from an allegedly undemocratic EU and be at the mercy of countries like the US, India, china et al, whoa re rubbing their hands at the thought of being able to **** the UK over royally in trade deals, knowing we will be desperate to do business, irrespective of the human, environmental or financial cost.

That is truely my last word on the subject on here, I shall sit back and watch the ****storm unfold and fortunately laugh all the way to the bank.

[Trickytreesreds]

Didn't answer the question as normal.

I'm not moving and neither are you. What's your solution?

Ps RA, stop crying it's getting embarrassing now.

[Andy_Faber]

take it off if you like Andy...

Only if it gets nasty as I’ve already mentioned or if it kills footy discussion, the latter looks most likely.

Disappointed that my genuine challenge to Swale was responded to with him reverting to his less appealing loadsamoney persona, but that question and my later post are open to all to respond to, there’s been a lot of negative stuff on here, some constructive responses to the issues at hand (on here and country wide) would be great

[Geoff Parkstone]

Unfortunately those of us less social media savvy than ye, Andy, cannot open faeces book links

[ramAnag]

Didn't answer the question as normal.

I'm not moving and neither are you. What's your solution?

Ps RA, stop crying it's getting embarrassing now.

The only thing that’s embarrassing Tricky, is your repeated failure to answer.

So, here you go...I’m not crying or ‘squealing’, but I’ve been asking for God knows how long how something that your own arch advocate of Brexit (Rees-Mogg) says is going to take half a century to recover from can be a good idea. Neither you nor your little mate who seems to have trotted off again can answer.

I understand the ‘short term pain for long term gain’ argument and life is littered with such examples. There is nothing short term about this though is there? Fifty years...about as long or a decade longer than most peoples’ working lives.

My eldest grandchild is nine. By JRM’s reckoning he will be about sixty by the time the UK will have recovered from Brexit. We know there are going to be thousands of job losses, we know the value of the £ is going to plummet even further, we know that most business leaders and financial institutions are opposed to Brexit and we know that so far all Brexit has achieved is to destabilise and divide the country.

My solution...a second referendum, held at a sensible time - of year and week - enabling as many properly informed people as possible to participate. Not easy I know but I no longer see any alternative.

So here’s your chance...again...you support a plan which your arch Brexit exponent has described as involving fifty years of recovery...how is this going to be good for us?

Either answer or stop wasting everyone’s time and let’s end the thread.

[Geoff Parkstone]

A second referendum is not a solution, but it would give parliament an excuse to bail out on promises made after the first one. The national divisiveness would remain. Let's say it resulted in a remain win by an equally limited majority as the first one: do we go to penalties, or maybe boundaries scored....

[Andy_Faber]

My solution...a second referendum,

held at a sensible time - of year and week - enabling as many properly informed people as possible to participate..

OK a start, but that’s not a solution in itself that’s a step to a solution

There are problems with that of course

What would the question be? My view of course is that it should revolve around options for leaving, but you will disagree and there will be as many opinions as there are people offering it

How could it be enacted? Let’s say it was a simple in/out question, and leave won again, the same parliamentary numbers will result in the same stalemate.

Your point about the time and date just give away your ‘remain at all costs’ stance but it’s understandable - maybe avoid the ‘love island’ period in the hope that you rope in the votes of those lost souls - if you are that desperate God help us

[ramAnag]

GP and Andy...it is a solution, though not a perfect one.
Fact arguably is...there is no easy solution. The politicians have got us into a terrible mess but we have to move forward somehow.

How would it be enacted? I think it has to be a binary choice between Remain or No Deal.

I’m not sure why you suggest time and date give away my ‘stance’. In other countries it always seems to be the case that such issues are decided with all day voting on a Sunday when most people have no work commitments. That makes sense to me.

The ‘can of worms’ has been opened and the situation has to be resolved. Let’s do it properly in a way which gives everyone plenty of notice/time to organise a postal vote if necessary and maximise everyone’s opportunity to vote uninfluenced by hyperbole, lies and electoral law breaking.

[Manofpride]

Why are remainers now believing Mogg about 50 years to recover, you haven't believed anything else he's said!

No one knows how long the recovery will be, no one.
I know one thing though and that is if everyone got on board with this the recovery time would be a lot quicker but remainers just keep trying to put obstacles in the way. We voted and no matter what the percentages were leave won it, We are leaving and it's going to happen, surely you want the Country to succeed when we do leave or do you want it all to just fail so you can say told you so.
Who's ever right or wrong we have to stick together, to want the Country to succeed we have to stick together, but there are many people who genuinely want it to fail but it's nice to know that of all the people wanting it to fail none of them will be leavers!

[MadAmster]

.... and it's my opinion that, if Mayhem et al had come up with a strong negotiating position in the first 6 months just like the EU did rather than taking over 2 years to come up with that quickly cobbled together position over a weekend at Chequers then there could have been a deal that would have got Parliamentary backing.

[Trickytreesreds]

The only thing that’s embarrassing Tricky, is your repeated failure to answer.

So, here you go...I’m not crying or ‘squealing’, but I’ve been asking for God knows how long how something that your own arch advocate of Brexit (Rees-Mogg) says is going to take half a century to recover from can be a good idea. Neither you nor your little mate who seems to have trotted off again can answer.

I understand the ‘short term pain for long term gain’ argument and life is littered with such examples. There is nothing short term about this though is there? Fifty years...about as long or a decade longer than most peoples’ working lives.

My eldest grandchild is nine. By JRM’s reckoning he will be about sixty by the time the UK will have recovered from Brexit. We know there are going to be thousands of job losses, we know the value of the £ is going to plummet even further, we know that most business leaders and financial institutions are opposed to Brexit and we know that so far all Brexit has achieved is to destabilise and divide the country.

My solution...a second referendum, held at a sensible time - of year and week - enabling as many properly informed people as possible to participate. Not easy I know but I no longer see any alternative.

So here’s your chance...again...you support a plan which your arch Brexit exponent has described as involving fifty years of recovery...how is this going to be good for us?

Either answer or stop wasting everyone’s time and let’s end the thread.

Jesus christ, you're such a drama queen.

So Rees Mogg says it COULD take 50 years to recover?
Do you believe that?
The operative term is COULD. In the same speech he said it was a fantastic opportunity that COULD see massive benefits.]
Now you and your mate, wouldn't believe a word out of his and Farage's mouth before.
So why is is now a revelation to you?

Conversely, the EU is in decline and the debts mounting. We are tied int o that and have responsibilities to bail out the decrepit countries.
Our trade with them is in decline and you ignore all this.

I think I'll take my chances thanks.
Remember the screams of doom that would happen the moment we voted leave?
Remember the screams of doom, if we don't join the Euro?

No of course you don't.

I'll say it again. I don't want to a part of a super state, locked into an immovable government and law system.
Don't deny it doesn't /isn't happening because it is.

NB. I have just ordered a new 3 series. BMW are not worried at all about Brexit at my dealers. They think it's funny, as trade will go on perfectly well.
I also requested they fit plates without that ****ing EU flag in the corner. That got a laugh and apparently it is quite common.

Unlike you and scizhodale, I see the benefits of opportunities.
Of course they want a deal, but a deal where they retain control is not a deal.
If they won't bend, so be it.

[Geoff Parkstone]

If you are going to have a referendum, which I for one would not, then the basis should be:

1. Mandatory voting, failure to vote without just cause (eg at A&E or something life threatening, not "it was raining") should be a criminal offence and dealt with accordingly. This may involve passing some enforcement legislation, which means parliamentary approval, so that probably wont happen;

2. A STV three way option (and this presumes there is a deal in place to stand as one of the options) asking the man in the street to pick one of "Remain, No Deal or Leave by Deal" and then pick a second option for when the inevitable no overall majority is achieved. This would then give a tie breaker;

3. Parliament to absolutely guarantee to enact the decision of that referendum regardless of the outcome, with no stalling, no prevarication and in the manner that the STV driven outcome dictates;

4. Absence of parliament enacting the decision within 3 months of the referendum would lead to dissolution of parliament and lifetime bans on all extant MP's for standing again.

The issue here is not that the result will go one way or the other, but rather that parliament devolved the decision to the general public, and then, when the result was not what they wanted, parliament has done everything it can to thwart that decision, even to the extent of negotiating a deal so bad that it was not acceptable to anyone. This action, even more so than Blair's war mongering, parliamentary expenses fiddles and so on has caused parliament to be held in contempt and disrepute. They must either piss or get off the pot, as my dear old granddad was wont to say.

Any weaker form of referendum (eg RA's voluntary binary one) would not get my support as it will unquestionably result in another inconclusive message, with either a second minority majority decision to leave, or a one all draw on a minority majority basis.

The punishment for failing to vote in the 2nd referendum would be for the malcontent to be sewn up in a leather sack with RA and Angry and tossed off Tower Bridge' in a latter day version of the Roman "poena cullei". Or maybe that sentence should have just ended before the word "Tower"

[ramAnag]

Jesus christ, you're such a drama queen.

So Rees Mogg says it COULD take 50 years to recover?
Do you believe that?
The operative term is COULD. In the same speech he said it was a fantastic opportunity that COULD see massive benefits.]
Now you and your mate, wouldn't believe a word out of his and Farage's mouth before.
So why is is now a revelation to you?

Conversely, the EU is in decline and the debts mounting. We are tied int o that and have responsibilities to bail out the decrepit countries.
Our trade with them is in decline and you ignore all this.

I think I'll take my chances thanks.
Remember the screams of doom that would happen the moment we voted leave?
Remember the screams of doom, if we don't join the Euro?

No of course you don't.

I'll say it again. I don't want to a part of a super state, locked into an immovable government and law system.
Don't deny it doesn't /isn't happening because it is.

NB. I have just ordered a new 3 series. BMW are not worried at all about Brexit at my dealers. They think it's funny, as trade will go on perfectly well.
I also requested they fit plates without that ****ing EU flag in the corner. That got a laugh and apparently it is quite common.

Unlike you and scizhodale, I see the benefits of opportunities.
Of course they want a deal, but a deal where they retain control is not a deal.
If they won't bend, so be it.

It’s not a ‘revelation’ to me at all...but when the biggest Brexit supporter in the land talks of a fifty year recovery neither is it a good advert.

I don’t want to be locked into a ‘Superstate’ either but the last time I looked all EU countries have maintained their own laws and individuality.

Your BMW story is pure anecdote. For each one of those there’s an opposite...guy next door to me run’s his own business, he’s desperately concerned by the prospect of ‘no deal’ and already bemoaning the increased cost of materials he has to pay to bring into the country since Brexit, while other people I know in the medical profession are appalled by the price we have already begun to be made aware of in terms of EU funded medical research.

I too see the value of opportunities but also the dangers of chasing ill thought out ones.

[MadAmster]

1. It’s not a ‘revelation’ to me at all...but when the biggest Brexit supporter in the land talks of a fifty year recovery neither is it a good advert.

2. I don’t want to be locked into a ‘Superstate’ either but the last time I looked all EU countries have maintained their own laws and individuality.

1. You seem to be being selective rA. Rees Mogg did indeed say it COULD take 50 years to recover. He did not say that it WILL. In the same speech he said it was a fantastic opportuntiy that COULD see massive benefits. He did not say that it WILL. For some reason you seem to have focussed on the 50 years line and not the benefits line. I am intrigued as to why you grab hold of the one quote but appear to dismiss the other.

2. Last time you looked you were right, however......... both the outgoing EU top 4 and the incoming replacements are hell bent on sourcing out more power and tax collecting opportunities from the member states to Brussels/Strasbourg. They want to standardise taxes and tax collecting. IMO you should not be looking at what the EU is today but at what the end game is. That end game is the reason I am against the EU. A huge, inefficient monolith that needs stopping while we sill can.