OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[swaledale]

No clarification needed, you obviously don't like the man.
It would be like me trying to find positives of being a Forest supporter.
Once we leave and it won't be long now we can all get back to normal!
I'm also happy to leave without a deal, I'd prefer a deal but not a bad deal.

Well one thing you can't say you were conned, Boris's modus operandi is clear, he lies he waffles, he prevaricates, he blames others, those that swallow what he says or even believe a quarter of it are clearly deluded, those who think he is fit to be the leader of this country have very low standards! The mans a charlatan and as such our world standing will sink even lower.

As for leaving on 31 October, mm I would say thats very unlikely as fortunately the Pm isn't all powerful as we live in a democracy. I forsee much egg on his face, though of course it won't be his fault!

[ramAnag]

MOP, you're wasting your breath.
At the very least, the remoaners want the back stop. It ties us in on a technicality.
**** load of divorce money/no say on anything/yet have to abide by EU trade rules.
Bum deal beyond belief.
Just get it done, all this pissing about helps no one.
We can move on and they can get on at playing pretend to be a super nation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jsdsh2CL-cA

Tricky, just because May’s deal was a ‘bum deal’ doesn’t make a ‘no deal’ Brexit any more attractive.
The Irish, the Scots and, a little late perhaps, the Welsh farmers are entirely opposed to ‘no deal’ and so, one imagines, is at least half of England.
A ‘no deal’ exit from Europe was never an option in the Referendum and Johnson’s populist bluster is all just pure ‘spin’.
He and Gove can play the tough negotiators as much as they like - doubtless some will be sucked in by it - but if they repeatedly appear on national TV telling everyone that’s what they’re all about it rapidly begins to appear like hopelessly poor politics.

[Manofpride]

Well one thing you can't say you were conned, Boris's modus operandi is clear, he lies he waffles, he prevaricates, he blames others, those that swallow what he says or even believe a quarter of it are clearly deluded, those who think he is fit to be the leader of this country have very low standards! The mans a charlatan and as such our world standing will sink even lower.

As for leaving on 31 October, mm I would say thats very unlikely as fortunately the Pm isn't all powerful as we live in a democracy. I forsee much egg on his face, though of course it won't be his fault!

Out of all the Prime Ministers the UK have had, name one who has never lied, just one?

[Manofpride]

MOP, you're wasting your breath.

Yep, I have to admit you're right!!!

[Trickytreesreds]

No it doesn't its an interim position thats why its called a Withdrawal Agreement, during that interim we can sort out the actual trade deal.

But I guess it makes sense to **** the countries economy for at least a decade, damage the futures of the upcoming generation and make us an isolated figure in the world with no influence subject to the whims and largesse of the USA, China and India to name but three countries who will of course trade with us on terms to our advantage purely out of kindness?

Seems an entirely rational and intelligent decision to take, I mean its on a par with shooting oneself in the foot and saying optimistically that everything will be fine (after all we survived the war!).

OK, lets just be sensible about what you have said.

Interim deal as we withdraw.
Fine it still sounds good.

Two years to do it in.
Still sounds good.

After two years, no agreement reached? Errrrrrrrrrrrm back stop kicks in.


One side wants to leave the agreement? Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrm, no you're not doing that either. We have to agree or you saty where you are sunshine.

Do you negotiate with someone holding your testicles?

Again, it has to be said. All the negativity here is easy.
It's assumed negativity as well. No one mentions the Assumed positives.
No one mentions the way the EU is going.

Put your economic smoke screen to one side.
I/WE WHO VOTED OUT, DO NOT WANT TO BE PART OF A SUPERSTATE.

Or maybe you are still denying that was/is the plan.

[ramAnag]

I/WE WHO VOTED OUT, DO NOT WANT TO BE PART OF A SUPERSTATE.

Neither do I...but I’d rather have a say in the way this supposed ‘Superstate’ is shaping up than playing the role of isolated and recalcitrant neighbour putting all our eggs into the basket temporarily resulting from the two morally bankrupt blondes cosying up to one another.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Quoth rA "A ‘no deal’ exit from Europe was never an option in the Referendum"

As I recall it, the referendum was silent as to how brexit was to have been achieved - it was simply a leave or stay "binary" decision. I fear it is your 20-20 hindsight that has now brought the dynamic of how into the equation.

Thus to claim that a no deal exit was never sanctioned by the referendum is a daft as saying that a "with deal brexit" was never sanctioned. The question in the referendum was all about what we do, not how we do it.

"no deal" has to come back on the table to try to force the EU to renegotiate that which they are otherwise refusing to do. Otherwise we are simply renegotiating with both hands tied behind our back. But even then, its a false premise because parliament is highly unlikely to approve a "no deal" no matter how much Bozzer throws his toys out of pram.

So its a phony war of double and triple bluffing. Boris is holding a pair of 7's and trying to convince the EU that he has a full house against their 3 of a kind. Trouble is that half of the PM's colleagues are standing behind Boris and telling the other player that he's not even got a pair.

and this is what is known as negotiation?

[AngryRam]

I/WE WHO VOTED OUT, DO NOT WANT TO BE PART OF A SUPERSTATE.

Neither do I...but I’d rather have a say in the way this supposed ‘Superstate’ is shaping up than playing the role of isolated and recalcitrant neighbour putting all our eggs into the basket temporarily resulting from the two morally bankrupt blondes cosying up to one another.

Why?

[ramAnag]

Quoth rA "A ‘no deal’ exit from Europe was never an option in the Referendum"

As I recall it, the referendum was silent as to how brexit was to have been achieved - it was simply a leave or stay "binary" decision. I fear it is your 20-20 hindsight that has now brought the dynamic of how into the equation.

Thus to claim that a no deal exit was never sanctioned by the referendum is a daft as saying that a "with deal brexit" was never sanctioned. The question in the referendum was all about what we do, not how we do it.

"no deal" has to come back on the table to try to force the EU to renegotiate that which they are otherwise refusing to do. Otherwise we are simply renegotiating with both hands tied behind our back. But even then, its a false premise because parliament is highly unlikely to approve a "no deal" no matter how much Bozzer throws his toys out of pram.

So its a phony war of double and triple bluffing. Boris is holding a pair of 7's and trying to convince the EU that he has a full house against their 3 of a kind. Trouble is that half of the PM's colleagues are standing behind Boris and telling the other player that he's not even got a pair.

and this is what is known as negotiation?

We were however constantly told in 2016 that the negotiations would be the easiest ever...to have a ‘no deal’ Brexit is to abandon the notion of negotiation as the Welsh sheep farmers, who may have originally voted for Brexit but now realise they will face 40% tariffs on their produce should a ‘no deal’ take place, have been quick to point out.

Why, Angry? I’d have thought it was obvious...in brief, I’m opposed to isolationism, in favour of maintaining good political and trading relationships with our nearest neighbours, supportive of the idea of helping shape Europe rather than being at odds with it and concerned about the transient nature of any ‘treaties’ cobbled together by Johnson and Trump.

[Trickytreesreds]

I/WE WHO VOTED OUT, DO NOT WANT TO BE PART OF A SUPERSTATE.

Neither do I...but I’d rather have a say in the way this supposed ‘Superstate’ is shaping up than playing the role of isolated and recalcitrant neighbour putting all our eggs into the basket temporarily resulting from the two morally bankrupt blondes cosying up to one another.

Shape what exactly?

Did you get a say on Maastrict?

Did you get a say on Lisbon?

Errrrrrrrrrm no you didn't. Everything in them is the devoltion of national soveriegnty towards the superstate.
You don't want one, but it's being done right under your nose.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVMx_7TOk_w

Your personal views of Trump/Johnson are irrelevant.
They can be got got rid of by voters. but once amalgamated then, your choices nationally are gone. FOREVER.

Still ignoring the fact, that this scenario is not wanted by the voting majority.


Why, Angry? I’d have thought it was obvious...in brief, I’m opposed to isolationism, in favour of maintaining good political and trading relationships with our nearest neighbours,
But this is exactly what we signed up for. NOT A BLOODY SUPERSTATE

[AngryRam]

We were however constantly told in 2016 that the negotiations would be the easiest ever...to have a ‘no deal’ Brexit is to abandon the notion of negotiation as the Welsh sheep farmers, who may have originally voted for Brexit but now realise they will face 40% tariffs on their produce should a ‘no deal’ take place, have been quick to point out.

Why, Angry? I’d have thought it was obvious...in brief, I’m opposed to isolationism, in favour of maintaining good political and trading relationships with our nearest neighbours, supportive of the idea of helping shape Europe rather than being at odds with it and concerned about the transient nature of any ‘treaties’ cobbled together by Johnson and Trump.

We can still trade with Europe, even after we leave. Trade will still continue, deal or no deal.
Tariffs might be an issue on some products but personally I would not get too hung up on those, let business deal with those adjustments.. I drive a reasonable Audi.. That same Audi is still cheaper to buy in the USA. Not sure what the US tariffs are on cars, might be zero, might not be. I am also pretty sure they are not manufactured in Mexico (could be wrong but could not find anything to suggest they are). So Audi still manage to get the same car and spec sold in the US for less than I paid in the UK. Let’s assume we have a zero tariff, which I doubt the the US. Logistically it is more expensive to get it from Germany to the USA and its still cheaper.
Market forces will mean Audi have some decisions to make..

Like Tricky I have no desire to be part of a federal Europe and change from within is only going to become harder. You saw MAs post earlier in the thread where he says the EU is now becoming quite open about wanting more power.

Isolationism verses globalisation.. Interesting debate.. Globalisation worries me more.. A world run by big business for big business.. Google, Facebook and Amazon dictating what you do and when you do it.

I would have thought that those of you who lean more to the left of the political debate would have major issues with globalisation?
It’s not there yet but the EU is just big business company called the EU..

[AngryRam]

2.5% import duty on EU cars into the USA..

[AngryRam]

Yes Audi do manufacture in Mexico but not my model.

[ramAnag]

Shape what exactly?

Did you get a say on Maastrict?

Did you get a say on Lisbon?

Errrrrrrrrrm no you didn't. Everything in them is the devoltion of national soveriegnty towards the superstate.
You don't want one, but it's being done right under your nose.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVMx_7TOk_w

Your personal views of Trump/Johnson are irrelevant.
They can be got got rid of by voters. but once amalgamated then, your choices nationally are gone. FOREVER.

Still ignoring the fact, that this scenario is not wanted by the voting majority.


Why, Angry? I’d have thought it was obvious...in brief, I’m opposed to isolationism, in favour of maintaining good political and trading relationships with our nearest neighbours,
But this is exactly what we signed up for. NOT A BLOODY SUPERSTATE

Did I get a say?

I had a vote in 1973.
I’ve had subsequent votes in the formation of the Parliamentary democracy that has negotiated at Masstricht and Lisbon so to that extent...yes.

Share some of your concerns about the formation of a ‘Superstate’ but, at the risk of repeating myself, wherever I travel in Europe I’m still very much aware of the sense of national identity and I still see us in the UK having our own currency, making our own laws, retaining our own language and our curious mixture of metric and imperial measurement without any interference from abroad.

My personal views on Trump and Johnson are not irrelevant at all. As members of the EU we became the fifth wealthiest nation on the planet. Given our size and significance I’d say we’ve been possibly punching above our weight but we were doing very well.
Trump will be a factor for another five years at the most...the way Johnson is going I reckon there’s more chance of a General Election by Oct’ 31st than us leaving...swapping decades of trade treaties with the countries of the EU for trade deals designed by those two does not seem the best of plans to me.

[Trickytreesreds]

I'd just like to leave another point about the super EU.

A few weeks ago, the Royal navy and Gibraltan customs, seized a tanker suspected of breaking EU sanctions imposed on Syria.
Yes that's right, EU SANCTIONS.

In the meantime, where the **** has the EU been in all this?
The escalation in the gulf, by Iran with tit for tat retaliation has produced a wall of silence by the pen pushers.

Superstate/army/flag/anthem. Yearh right.
As usual, the French and Germans no where to be seen. Only time they become loud, is when they are chucking bullets at each other.