OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[AngryRam]

Not wanting to gang up but I'd say yes to that question RA. If remainers weren't fighting tooth and nail against any form of brexit progression, efforts could be better channeled. You can't sabotage something at every juncture and not take responsibility for your actions (don't take that personally).

Exactly..

[swaledale]

It is very much the fault of the remainers in government and people like you who they cling to for their agenda. We would have been gone by now if you drama queens had accepted the result but no and now we have a prolonged period of uncertainty which helps nobody..
Have a look in a mirror and you will see everything wrong with this country looking right back at you.

What utter *******s, the current situation is as much the fault of the hard Brexiteers who stymied the withdrawal agreement that didnt lead to the hard Brexit they crave!

Whatever ones views on leave or Remain, there is no overwhelming mandate from the referendum for a Brexit, a narrow majority in favour and there is certainly no mandate for a no deal Brexit.

Now its not the fault of those that voted remain that amongst the many lies spouted by the Brexit campaign was that it would be easy to do a trade deal with the EU, that they would roll over and be eager to do one because it would be in their interests to do so.

Nobody on the Brexit side has ever had a coherent plan as to how Brexit would be delivered and they still don't. We are now in the realms of "Everything will be fine, we are "Great Britain" we survived the war and other such nonesense!

The sovereign parliament is actually doing its job, acting in the best interests of the country, unfortunately its electorate re on the whole to bloody thick to understand what that means, like many on here posting absolute tosh about stuff they know nothing about!

[MadAmster]

The deal was, rightly IMO, voted down by Parliament. The backstop could well see the UK stuck in an in out shake it all about Brexit where the only thing the UK is really out of is the decision making process. It would still be in the Customs Union. There would still be freedom of movement. There would still be billions going to the EU each year as some kind of "membership fee" of a club the UK wouldn't be a member of.

Even worse, there is absolutely no mention of how the UK could get out of that situation. The truth is that, until a solution is found to the Irish border issue, which could be never, the situation I describe earlier in this post will remain.

[Trickytreesreds]

Oh look, Germany is "teetering" on recession. Damn those Brexiteers and their rebellious ways.
The whole world has gone to **** because of them.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2019/aug/14/germany-economy-shrinks-gdp-recession-uk-inflation-stock-markets-business-live

Grow up, deal with the decision and lets get moving.
Germany will roll its sleeves up and deal with it. You won't find them blubbing like kids for 3 years.

[ramAnag]

It is very much the fault of the remainers in government and people like you who they cling to for their agenda. We would have been gone by now if you drama queens had accepted the result but no and now we have a prolonged period of uncertainty which helps nobody..
Have a look in a mirror and you will see everything wrong with this country looking right back at you.

I know it’s not a very nice feeling Angry, when you have what you think is a really good idea and it rapidly turns to s**t before your eyes. For some - and certainly it would seem for you - the reaction is to search for someone to blame, to point the finger elsewhere...anywhere except at those who dreamt up the idea in the first place. If you can throw in an element of repetitive and utterly unfunny personal attack as well then so much the better. That’s you in a nutshell though isn’t it? Brexit and the Brexiteers are absolutely blameless and the mess we’re currently in is all the fault of cardigan wearing, ultra left wing, drama queen/teachers (all hopelessly untrue) like myself.

There seems to be a lot of flawed thinking on here right now. We all hold differing views, although thankfully there are some who can make their point without recourse to witless personal attack.
Blaming those who consistently cautioned against the dangers of Brexit for the mess we are now in though seems to me utterly ridiculous.
It’s rather like blaming pacifists for the outbreak of war, laying the blame for the carnage at the Somme at the door of conscientious objectors or blaming the little old lady who sticks to the speed limit for an accident when in fact it was the aggressive and inpatient speeding driver who was responsible for wiping out those in the oncoming family saloon via his reckless overtaking.

The UK is in a mess. We have become polarised and possibly defined as a divided nation of Leavers or Remainers. Some, a large proportion of farmers for example, seem to be changing their minds now that the twin realities of a ‘no deal’ Brexit being the national equivalent of shooting ourselves in both feet and the fact that the Brexit negotiations are patently not ‘amongst the easiest ever’ have begun to be acknowledged.
Personally I can no longer see any way out of this impasse other than a second, much better ‘policed’ referendum but honestly, please stop trying to blame Remainers...when was the last time any of you, in whatever situation you care to come up with, when faced with a course of action that was rapidly going horribly wrong decided to stubbornly carry on regardless?

Blaming Remainers for the Brexit situation is like blaming the weather forecasters for an approaching storm...utter nonsense.

[AngryRam]

What utter *******s, the current situation is as much the fault of the hard Brexiteers who stymied the withdrawal agreement that didnt lead to the hard Brexit they crave!

Whatever ones views on leave or Remain, there is no overwhelming mandate from the referendum for a Brexit, a narrow majority in favour and there is certainly no mandate for a no deal Brexit.

Now its not the fault of those that voted remain that amongst the many lies spouted by the Brexit campaign was that it would be easy to do a trade deal with the EU, that they would roll over and be eager to do one because it would be in their interests to do so.

Nobody on the Brexit side has ever had a coherent plan as to how Brexit would be delivered and they still don't. We are now in the realms of "Everything will be fine, we are "Great Britain" we survived the war and other such nonesense!

The sovereign parliament is actually doing its job, acting in the best interests of the country, unfortunately its electorate re on the whole to bloody thick to understand what that means, like many on here posting absolute tosh about stuff they know nothing about!

Really!!
A Brexit deal pushed through by a Remainer as some sort of middle ground appeasement. Rightly destroyed by both sides, folly from the start by May. What the hell was the point in that? Now we just bumble on because of Reaminers taking every opportunity to **** things up.

[AngryRam]

I know it’s not a very nice feeling Angry, when you have what you think is a really good idea and it rapidly turns to s**t before your eyes. For some - and certainly it would seem for you - the reaction is to search for someone to blame, to point the finger elsewhere...anywhere except at those who dreamt up the idea in the first place. If you can throw in an element of repetitive and utterly unfunny personal attack as well then so much the better. That’s you in a nutshell though isn’t it? Brexit and the Brexiteers are absolutely blameless and the mess we’re currently in is all the fault of cardigan wearing, ultra left wing, drama queen/teachers (all hopelessly untrue) like myself.

There seems to be a lot of flawed thinking on here right now. We all hold differing views, although thankfully there are some who can make their point without recourse to witless personal attack.
Blaming those who consistently cautioned against the dangers of Brexit for the mess we are now in though seems to me utterly ridiculous.
It’s rather like blaming pacifists for the outbreak of war, laying the blame for the carnage at the Somme at the door of conscientious objectors or blaming the little old lady who sticks to the speed limit for an accident when in fact it was the aggressive and inpatient speeding driver who was responsible for wiping out those in the oncoming family saloon via his reckless overtaking.

The UK is in a mess. We have become polarised and possibly defined as a divided nation of Leavers or Remainers. Some, a large proportion of farmers for example, seem to be changing their minds now that the twin realities of a ‘no deal’ Brexit being the national equivalent of shooting ourselves in both feet and the fact that the Brexit negotiations are patently not ‘amongst the easiest ever’ have begun to be acknowledged.
Personally I can no longer see any way out of this impasse other than a second, much better ‘policed’ referendum but honestly, please stop trying to blame Remainers...when was the last time any of you, in whatever situation you care to come up with, when faced with a course of action that was rapidly going horribly wrong decided to stubbornly carry on regardless?

Blaming Remainers for the Brexit situation is like blaming the weather forecasters for an approaching storm...utter nonsense.

I think it was you making the statement that the current situation was all Brexits fault. Don’t be surprised when myself and others push back and challenge your comments..
Who says the original idea has turned to ****.. Just what was the question again? Leave or stay?
Wondered when you would raise the second referendum again. What would be your choices of question? What do you think a second referendum would achieve? If it went against you, would you finally shut up?
It’s nothing like blaming pacifists for causing war.. Behave.
The flawed thinking sits with two posters I’m afraid.

I do agree however that the U.K. is in a mess. It would inevitably be in a bigger mess with a second referendum..

[Geoff Parkstone]

I think a lot of the problems that afflict the pound and the stock markets are down to uncertainty, Not pers se to Brexit, nor indeed to the stubborn refusal of remainers to accept that they lost the referendum. Its a combination of many things. The initial impact of Brexit would have been factored into the markets 3 years ago, if not before the referendum, then certainly just after it, since the outcome was a bit of a surprise.

Since then the markets have shown volatility and have drifted slowly against sterling because of the fact that we cant make our minds up, and for sure some of the blame for that lies at the feet of the remainers trying to block the decision being enacted, for, it seems, the simple reason that "they know best". Its the uncertainty as to outcome, not the fact of Brexit, that is buggering things up.

This uncertainty stems from many sources - internal brexiteer squabbles over how hard to go, remainer vs brexiteer squabbles about whether we should have voted the way we did, calls for second votes, ineffective political parties too cowardly to make stands - because IN/OUT does not fall along traditional party lines, so if they take a position they will alienate a significant chunk of their following. It all creates a massive melting pot of uncertainty, and financial markets hate uncertainty above all else.

Blame lies everywhere, and it does noone any good trying to fix it entirely on the other person. In my view however the biggest blame lies with Theresa May and her wasted years negotiating a deal that she must have known would be unacceptable to everyone. This WAS the action of a remainer wolf in brexiteer sheep's clothing. Designed I am sure to fail, and thus to make remain more probable as it took the option of a reasonable departure off the table. The wasted years and the opportunity to act sensibly was gone, thus the markets saw more uncertainty and continued to slide.

Now we have Johnson condemned to renegotiate with one, if not both, hands tied behind his back. No bargaining power save the **** you option of no deal. His personality does not lend itself to submissive attempts to buy favours from the EU in an enhanced deal. May has backed the country into a corner and fled the scene. Total chaos, complete pigs ear. The options appear to be no deal brexit or cancel brexit.

Both of which would lead to explosive outcomes. is it any wonder confidence in UK plc is sinking faster than the Titanic?

[ramAnag]

Lots of well informed sense there Parky, although if you’re going to apportion blame to May wouldn’t it be fairer to point the finger at the Tory Party as a whole?
After all it was they...Cameron and Osborn...who came up with the notion of a people’s Referendum to sort out their own Party squabble between the moderates and the hard liners...it was they who then appointed your ‘remainer wolf in Brexiteer sheep’s clothing’ as PM for the next three years...and it is them again who have appointed the back stabbing duo of Johnson and Gove - along with the unelected Cummings - in charge of the direction our country now takes.
I honestly cannot remember a time when any UK Party of Government has ever displayed such a combination of arrogance, dishonesty and incompetence and yet, such is the inadequacy of the opposition, it still seems that another Tory - Hammond - may be the best hope for leading us out of the current mess.

You ‘wondered when I’d raise the second referendum again’ did you, Angry?
You need to pay more attention. Perhaps you’ve been concentrating too hard on making poor and pointless ‘jokes’ out of me being a retired teacher but I have often said that, however unsatisfactory the concept of having a referendum may be, I cannot now see an alternative and, more recently, seeing as we are now in the situation we are, that the choice probably has to be between ‘No Deal’ or ‘Remain’. Sad but what’s your alternative?

[Geoff Parkstone]

You have a point rA, but in that sense you could also blame the people for voting how they did (I'm sure you do!!). Whilst not necessarily conceived of for the national good, the result triggered everything that followed and was not really the cause of the subsequent economic woes - it simply triggered a series of events that should have reflected public opinion at the time (and, no, lets not get into that debate again).

That the ruling party, the majority of whom did not agree with the referendum outcome, and so dillied dallied deferred demurred and delayed acting in accordance with public opinion is at the core of today's malaise and they are primarily personified by May after the progenitor of disaster bailed out a beaten man. Perhaps one is being harsh on May personally, but she fronted out the sabotage. However, whether you blame the Tory hierarchy or May, both are effectively saboteur remainers.

Despite your reservations, it might have been better to have appointed BoJo in the first place rather than queering his pitch and then turning to him 3 years later. But maybe that was remainer strategy to usurp the referendum result: take negotiated exit off the table by producing such an unacceptable deal, resulting in stay or **** you as the only alternatives.

So in that sense I can see an argument that the whole mess today is the fault of remainers, but I think its way more complicated than that

[ramAnag]

Nice alliteration GP...yes Remainers have undoubtedly slowed the process down but you really can’t blame them for a situation that they always and consistently cautioned against.
Responsibility lies squarely with such political opportunists as Farage and the ERG hardliners and those who were/are gullible enough to believe their lies...imo.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Nice alliteration GP...yes Remainers have undoubtedly slowed the process down but you really can’t blame them for a situation that they always and consistently cautioned against.

Correct, they need to remain true to their beliefs and put up or shut up. However when it becomes (imo) willful obstruction - in the case of May - that is not in the national interest that she swore to uphold, and becomes her enforcing the undue influence of her personal beliefs..........

[ramAnag]

Far be it from me to defend Mrs. May, I think she was dreadful, but I suppose she was caught between a rock and a hard place...trying, in the name of democracy, to deliver some sort of Brexit, but in the name of common sense and the well being of the nation, to deliver it in its least damaging form.
Suppose that last sentence sums up my view...why on earth are we even trying to implement something which most - or at least so many - believe will be ultimately damaging to our national well being for the foreseeable future?

[MadAmster]

I blame May, Cameron and the vast majority of their cabinets and a slight majority of Tory MPs for the sorry mess we are currently in. Cameron would never have come up with the idea in the first place if EU membership wasn't tearing the Tory party asunder.

The referendum saw more votes cast for Leave than for Remain. That shocked the entire political establishment.

Cameron felt he was unable to lead exit negotiations adequately as he was against leaving the EU and that he wouldn't get the best out of it for the UK. He decided to resign. He fell on his sword. An honourable act and I commend him for it (but for little else if I'm honest).

May won the subsequent election to lead the Tories and, therefore, be PM. It allw ent downhill after that.

The referendum was in June 2016. It was only a couple of months later that the EU had its position set down in writing and agreed by the other 27 member states. That position is almost verbatim the deal May signed but Parliament rejected, rightly IMO, 3 times.

May et al FINALLY came up with their position after a weekend of cabinet talks at Chequers............... in October 2018!!!!!!! Why on earth did it take 2 and a quarter years for the UK to come up with a standpoint? THAT is, IMO, the major reason May had such a weak bargaining position. She didn't come up with one until it was almost too damned late and then she ditched "No Deal" as an option which was the only real lvereage the UK has/had and despite her saying all along "No deal is better than a bad deal".

It should surprise noone that I blame May, her cabinet and the Tory party for for the mess negotiations got into and remain in to this day. That 2.25 year delay was and is and shall remain unforgivable.

[Trickytreesreds]

Just been watching CNN.
USA teetering on recession as red ines being breached everywhere.


My god what have we done?

Who'd have thought a yes vote, could effect so much of the world trade markets.
Germany, Italy, USA ?

China is next. They,ve been in free fall months.

"Damn you all, damn you all to hell" ( my best Charlton Heston impression from planet of the Apes)