OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[swaledale]

Oh give over. A decent negotiator, who wasn't a closet remainer would have helped.
She did her best to stitch this up and make a pigs ear of it.

Geert knows
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9uEZOahueU

Forgive me if I take no notice of your opinion, none of it is based on any understanding of what is actually involved and most of it is fed by ignorant bigotry and xenophobia which again is not based on any truth.

Lets face it everytime you post, you just demonstrate how utterly clueless you are!

[Trickytreesreds]

Forgive me if I take no notice of your opinion, none of it is based on any understanding of what is actually involved and most of it is fed by ignorant bigotry and xenophobia which again is not based on any truth.

Lets face it everytime you post, you just demonstrate how utterly clueless you are!

Well take no notice. You know better than everyone else in your own head. Your arrogance knows no bounds.
I would like to see you prove my bigotry and xenophobia.
But then again, you're not known for listening to the truth either.

Not even a mention of Geerts comments. But then again, it's too close to the knuckle for you.
Do as I say, not as I do.

[swaledale]

Agree with that Swale. I’d get your tin hat ready though...can already hear the predictable howls of outrage from the Brentford and Nottingham branches of the Brexit Party.

Imagine your response to that will probably be in the Geoff Boycott category.
Either way...if anyone needs confirmation of the degree of contempt the current Government has for democracy in this country they can surely no longer have any doubts after last night.

Anag I know only too well that there is no debate to be had with most on here, a few have some grasp of the reality, most just spout utter nonsense.

Over the past 3 years most of my work has seen thousands of well paid jobs, millions of pounds in economic activity and tax revenue migrate out of the country and we haven't even left yet.

IF we did leave the EU without a deal, the economic and political consequences would be devastating and so would the social consequences, but when you here Brexit supporters saying "independence" is worth any amount of pain, you realise that they are in some strange virtual reality.

Anyway it wont happen, as was ever going to be the case, the bumbling philandering liar that disgracefully is the PM of the UK and the front man for the far right people pushing a no deal Brexit wont succeed.

[Andy_Faber]

I take it your referring to the BBC who gives Farage more air time than virtually any other person?

The 'any other person' possibly being Owen Jones

[MadAmster]

There has been a lot of talk over the past 3 years on the chaos at ports in the event of No Deal. Here is an interesting point of view from the man who used to run the port of Dover. How true is it? Anybody's guess........

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/iain-dale/caller-port-of-dover-no-deal-brexit-really-like/

[AngryRam]

Agree with that Swale. I’d get your tin hat ready though...can already hear the predictable howls of outrage from the Brentford and Nottingham branches of the Brexit Party.

Imagine your response to that will probably be in the Geoff Boycott category.
Either way...if anyone needs confirmation of the degree of contempt the current Government has for democracy in this country they can surely no longer have any doubts after last night.

Actually not from me. At least he made his point without calling people idiots etc. I don’t agree with it but he put it well and it was an interesting read.. There are some valid points to discuss. I am sure people on both sides took in everything they were told.. Easy deals / Project Fear. But that was not everyone, which seems to be the inference.. What about the remainders who are equally disgusted with the state of parliament and the self interest of a few who see the EU as a gravy train when they eventually get voted out of their seats.

I have no idea where we are now with all this.. What I do know is that it needs to finish and leave is really the only option now. Staying will cause a bigger division than we have today. Just how we would have any trust in any government is unclear and may take generations to resolve. I can hear you thinking that it will take generations to get over Brexit.. I don’t agree, people and business will adjust and evolve.
These current incumbents will forever hold their heads in shame. Red or Blue, makes no difference, Brexit should not be party political. Look at the Labour Party now.. They are still all over the place in a desperate attempt to please everyone because their support base is split between leave and stay.

[AngryRam]

There has been a lot of talk over the past 3 years on the chaos at ports in the event of No Deal. Here is an interesting point of view from the man who used to run the port of Dover. How true is it? Anybody's guess........

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presente...t-really-like/

Actually the guy speaks a lot of sense.. All these dramas about no food and no medicine are crazy.. IF Tesco did not have produce a available for sale then it would be their logistics department at fault not Brexit. Manage your supply chain.

[ramAnag]

There has been a lot of talk over the past 3 years on the chaos at ports in the event of No Deal. Here is an interesting point of view from the man who used to run the port of Dover. How true is it? Anybody's guess........

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presente...t-really-like/

Iain Dale is an intelligent man and a competent broadcaster, MA.
He is also an arch advocate of Brexit and a failed wannabe right of centre politician...I wouldn’t put a lot of trust in his or LBC’s level of objectivity where this particular issue is concerned.

[ramAnag]

Actually not from me. At least he made his point without calling people idiots etc. I don’t agree with it but he put it well and it was an interesting read.. There are some valid points to discuss. I am sure people on both sides took in everything they were told.. Easy deals / Project Fear. But that was not everyone, which seems to be the inference.. What about the remainders who are equally disgusted with the state of parliament and the self interest of a few who see the EU as a gravy train when they eventually get voted out of their seats.

I have no idea where we are now with all this.. What I do know is that it needs to finish and leave is really the only option now. Staying will cause a bigger division than we have today. Just how we would have any trust in any government is unclear and may take generations to resolve. I can hear you thinking that it will take generations to get over Brexit.. I don’t agree, people and business will adjust and evolve.
These current incumbents will forever hold their heads in shame. Red or Blue, makes no difference, Brexit should not be party political. Look at the Labour Party now.. They are still all over the place in a desperate attempt to please everyone because their support base is split between leave and stay.

Wow...an almost conciliatory post from the Angry one. Are you on Prozac or have you been hacked?

Nice to see anyway. Have to take issue with your ‘leave is really the only option now’ though.

Why is that?

The overwhelming mood of Parliament - before it was silenced/suspended/prorogued/censored/shut down - and possibly the country as a whole is one of opposition to a ‘No Deal’ Brexit.

For the reasons you have explained, a General Election is not the answer.
Despite Johnsons’s stupidly inept attempt to ‘cloud’ the matter, all major Parties, the Lib Dems and the SNP apart, are split to some extent or other, on the pros and cons of Brexit.

All an Election is likely to achieve is another hung Parliament with small groups of MP’s representing organisations like the DUP and possibly the Brexit Party holding a disproportionate amount of power.

With all that in mind, surely a second - better informed - Referendum is the only democratic solution, although interestingly only the Labour Party appears to support this option.

[AngryRam]

Iain Dale is an intelligent man and a competent broadcaster, MA.
He is also an arch advocate of Brexit and a failed wannabe right of centre politician...I wouldn’t put a lot of trust in his or LBC’s level of objectivity where this particular issue is concerned.

Could that not be a relevant to everyone in this mess. Media, politicians, me, you ? Level of objectivity I mean.

[AngryRam]

Wow...an almost conciliatory post from the Angry one. Are you on Prozac or have you been hacked?

Nice to see anyway. Have to take issue with your ‘leave is really the only option now’.

Why is that?

The overwhelming mood of Parliament - before it was silenced/suspended/prorogued/censored - and possibly the country as a whole is one of opposition to a ‘No Deal’ Brexit.

For the reasons you have explained, a General Election is not the answer.
All major Parties, the Lib Dems and the SNP apart, are split to some extent or the other, on the pros and cons of Brexit.

All an Election is likely to achieve is another hung Parliament with minor groups like the DUP and possibly the Brexit Party holding a disproportionate amount of power.

With all that in mind, surely a second - better informed - Referendum is the only democratic solution though interestingly

Hacked off sitting in Milan..
Without wishing to turn into a politician by answering a question with a question.. But what do you think would happen to politics in this country if now they overturn the referendum?
IMO party politics will cease, a huge number will never vote again unless it is made mandatory and then they could just spoil their ballot papers.. Civil unrest? Maybe... Huge long lasting divisions in families. How would the country ever be effectively governed in the future?
I still don’t get a second referendum sorting anything.. We are not better advised because the whole 3 years have been a remain sham and the deal is a remain deal. As Tricky says, the deal could have been very different if a leader had been negotiating.. We will never know now. People are tired of it now, we were told it would be binding, Labour and everyone else supported Article 50. No ambiguity there, we will leave... They should get it done now, the current situation is helping nobody.

[Trickytreesreds]

Hacked off sitting in Milan..
Without wishing to turn into a politician by answering a question with a question.. But what do you think would happen to politics in this country if now they overturn the referendum?
IMO party politics will cease, a huge number will never vote again unless it is made mandatory and then they could just spoil their ballot papers.. Civil unrest? Maybe... Huge long lasting divisions in families. How would the country ever be effectively governed in the future?
I still don’t get a second referendum sorting anything.. We are not better advised because the whole 3 years have been a remain sham and the deal is a remain deal. As Tricky says, the deal could have been very different if a leader had been negotiating.. We will never know now. People are tired of it now, we were told it would be binding, Labour and everyone else supported Article 50. No ambiguity there, we will leave... They should get it done now, the current situation is helping nobody.

Just watched a very interesting idea on LBC (I know RA HATES IT).
It sorts this once and for all and torpedoes all the legal hijacking, barriers and sabateurs doing their best to cause chaos.

1. Revoke article 50. This stops the need to seek an extension, even if it's legally asked for.
2. Call the general election. No body swerving now. You have to have one.
3. Every party put s its cards on the table as to what it would do. This is as good a second referendum.

4. If Boris/Farage wins- asctivate article 50 immediately. You can leave as fast as you want in under 2 years. The next day if you wish.
5. If any of the Corbyns/Sturgeon/Swinson win, then remain it will be in effect.

No if's no buts. Stop moaning and get on with it.
For me, get ready for a Tory/Brexit party landslide.
Parliament has bought this on itself.

[ramAnag]

Hacked off sitting in Milan..
Without wishing to turn into a politician by answering a question with a question.. But what do you think would happen to politics in this country if now they overturn the referendum?
IMO party politics will cease, a huge number will never vote again unless it is made mandatory and then they could just spoil their ballot papers.. Civil unrest? Maybe... Huge long lasting divisions in families. How would the country ever be effectively governed in the future?
I still don’t get a second referendum sorting anything.. We are not better advised because the whole 3 years have been a remain sham and the deal is a remain deal. As Tricky says, the deal could have been very different if a leader had been negotiating.. We will never know now. People are tired of it now, we were told it would be binding, Labour and everyone else supported Article 50. No ambiguity there, we will leave... They should get it done now, the current situation is helping nobody.

Sorry you’re stuck in Milan. Is that BA to blame or has your van broken down? Have another cappuccino.

More seriously...you seem to be suggesting that we have to stick with the slender 2016 ‘decision’ because otherwise it will lead to the end of ‘party politics’ and there may be civil unrest...caused one has to suggest by disgruntled Brexiteers.

Can’t really see the sense of that.

The divisions are likely to remain anyway...the genie is out of the bottle...but let’s face it, the reason most Brexiteers don’t want a second referendum, as MoP recently and very honestly conceded, is that they think they’ll lose.

Why is that?

Because in the three plus years since June 2016 the public are better informed, the Remainers are no longer lulled into a false sense of security and complacency, the lies and untruths that people based their original decisions on have been exposed, the myth that Brexit (especially no deal) is the ‘will of the people’ is increasingly recognised as a sham and the fact that Brexit is actually damaging to the well being of this country is being acknowledged.

P.S. In case you don’t know...Scottish Courts have this morning ruled Johnson’s actions in relation to suspending Parliament as illegal. I’m thinking of becoming McramAnag!

[Geoff Parkstone]

We have reached the crossroads where the final twists will play themselves out. No more extentions, they could extend until the year 2525 and not find an answer.

Whichever road we take will lead to the "civil unrest" you speak of Angry. There is no clear solution, not even a cloudy one and even the muddy ones aren't much use.

An election won't solve it as its not a party political thing. A second referendum will only be undecided and result in calls for a third one.

The choice is clear: no deal Brexit, piss off a lot of people and face short term economic problems that may or may not be resolvable and may, long term, represent a better position.

Revoke article 50, piss of a lot of people and face short term issues around face saving and the EU getting its own back by weakening our special deals in place before 2016.

So either way is destined for disastrous consequences internally, divisiveness being polarised and carnage at the subsequent election as the prospect of a hung parliament looms large for many years to come as the leave and remain camps seek to gain political traction of their own at the cost of the split Labour and tory parties. That this is self inclicted across Parliament is ironic since Cameron wanted to reunite the Tories but has ended up splitting both major parties.

Anyway, enough of that - faced with a choice of no deal or revoke, I will get off the fence and say revoke. There will be civil unrest come what may, but as a person in the twilight of my working life I would prefer the short term stability remaining has to offer. Someone else can fight the longer term problems of the USE when they become more obvious to more people.

[ramAnag]

We have reached the crossroads where the final twists will play themselves out. No more extentions, they could extend until the year 2525 and not find an answer.

Whichever road we take will lead to the "civil unrest" you speak of Angry. There is no clear solution, not even a cloudy one and even the muddy ones aren't much use.

An election won't solve it as its not a party political thing. A second referendum will only be undecided and result in calls for a third one.

The choice is clear: no deal Brexit, piss off a lot of people and face short term economic problems that may or may not be resolvable and may, long term, represent a better position.

Revoke article 50, piss of a lot of people and face short term issues around face saving and the EU getting its own back by weakening our special deals in place before 2016.

So either way is destined for disastrous consequences internally, divisiveness being polarised and carnage at the subsequent election as the prospect of a hung parliament looms large for many years to come as the leave and remain camps seek to gain political traction of their own at the cost of the split Labour and tory parties. That this is self inclicted across Parliament is ironic since Cameron wanted to reunite the Tories but has ended up splitting both major parties.

Anyway, enough of that - faced with a choice of no deal or revoke, I will get off the fence and say revoke. There will be civil unrest come what may, but as a person in the twilight of my working life I would prefer the short term stability remaining has to offer. Someone else can fight the longer term problems of the USE when they become more obvious to more people.

At last! Sure you’ll be able to sit more comfortably now, GP. Old Roger Ramjet would be proud.

You’re right...whatever happens some will be pissed off, though I suspect the ‘civil unrest’ we all fear will be the territory of the likes of the more militant - and I have to say ‘stupid’ - Brexiteers such as those who support the likes of Tommy Robinson and the ‘Democratic
Football Lads Alliance’.

The fact that the beleaguered Johnson and Rees-Mogg have attempted to shamelessly ingratiate themselves with those particular areas of support should, imo, be a source of never ending shame.

Wonder how long now before Gove ‘jumps ship’ again?