OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Trickytreesreds]

such as who?

He will never say it out loud, his spine is on par with a jelly fish

[ramAnag]

On that note, enter TONY BLAIR, the epitomy of arrogance, who lied us into these things.
Still at it.

https://news.sky.com/story/afghanist...owers-12387017

Did Blair lie over Afghanistan, Tricky? He may well have over Iraq...or he may have been mistaken...but Afghanistan was different.
We/he became involved in Afghanistan in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 as a show of support for the ‘special relationship’ with our USA allies.
Whether that was misguided or not is for history to decide. Certainly those involved should have recognised that, no matter who the superpower, no one in recent history has exited Afghanistan ‘in credit’.
No more point in blaming Blair for the unique situation of 2001 than there is in blaming Johnson for the ongoing crisis imo. The immediate situation may be being handled very badly - and there blame may be attributed - but the ultimate outcome cannot for once, imo, be laid at Johnson’s door.
You criticise Blair and Biden, again because it suits your agenda, but out of interest...what would you have done? I may perhaps define it differently from you, and I loathe all forms of terrorism, not least the Taliban, but do you not recognise the truth of what Swale said about the arrogant imposition of our cultural values, and do you believe that Biden should have just continued to deploy a stream of young Americans to Afghanistan for a further twenty years? I’ve no idea what the solution is...but he surely has a point.

[Andy_Faber]

Agreed...unfortunately they’re hardly alone amongst ‘politicians’ across the world in that last respect.

It’s not really apolitical point I’m making though it’s a cultural one, and I refer back to my Iraqi friend, who conceded that in (in his case trade) negotiations he would lie, exaggerate and evade even when he didn’t need to, not especially for financial gain but just to ‘have one over’ on the other party. He justified it by saying (I paraphrase) ‘that is our way’. I introduced his business to its current bankers, honest Swedes, and they’ve been driven mad over the years by the subterfuge

[ramAnag]

It’s not really apolitical point I’m making though it’s a cultural one, and I refer back to my Iraqi friend, who conceded that in (in his case trade) negotiations he would lie, exaggerate and evade even when he didn’t need to, not especially for financial gain but just to ‘have one over’ on the other party. He justified it by saying (I paraphrase) ‘that is our way’. I introduced his business to its current bankers, honest Swedes, and they’ve been driven mad over the years by the subterfuge

Cultural? Such as who/which?

[Trickytreesreds]

Did Blair lie over Afghanistan, Tricky? He may well have over Iraq...or he may have been mistaken...but Afghanistan was different.
We/he became involved in Afghanistan in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 as a show of support for the ‘special relationship’ with our USA allies.
Whether that was misguided or not is for history to decide. Certainly those involved should have recognised that, no matter who the superpower, no one in recent history has exited Afghanistan ‘in credit’.
No more point in blaming Blair for the unique situation of 2001 than there is in blaming Johnson for the ongoing crisis imo. The immediate situation may be being handled very badly - and there blame may be attributed - but the ultimate outcome cannot for once, imo, be laid at Johnson’s door.
You criticise Blair and Biden, again because it suits your agenda, but out of interest...what would you have done? I may perhaps define it differently from you, and I loathe all forms of terrorism, not least the Taliban, but do you not recognise the truth of what Swale said about the arrogant imposition of our cultural values, and do you believe that Biden should have just continued to deploy a stream of young Americans to Afghanistan for a further twenty years? I’ve no idea what the solution is...but he surely has a point.

Yes Blair did lie. He thundered in his speeches that invading Afghanistan was that he promised the defeat of jihadism and the promotion of freedom. "This is a battle with only one outcome: our victory, not theirs,"
He relished the war streak in him, in the same way as he did, dragging us into the invasion of Iraq.
Once in, it was harder to come out than it ever was to go in.

Iraq was about ego and political gains, both sides of the Atlantic.
Afghanistan was about revenge for ISIS attacks and to take down the terrorists home base.


Personally, I'd have backed the assault on Bin Ladens forces, but no way was it correct to stay there.
They had to learn, that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. My disdain, is that the back lash didn't stretch to Pakistan and Saudi.

It is also apparent, that the Arab world is absolutely piss poor at policing itself.
Factions within factions, reignited many tribal conflicts stretching back thousands of years. It also why, I am against the willy nilly flooding of Islam throughout Europe.
The trouble it has caused is there for all to see. Germany/France/Sweden/Belgium/Denmark.
It is ok talking about saving those "POOR REFUGEES", but the problems come with them as well.

Going in, gave us a responsibilty to stabilise and secure. We have failed and Biden exasperated the failure.

In his defense though, I will say this. I have read many stories of British combat vets, talking about training the Afghan army. Chocolate fireguard and the backbone of a jelly fish got mentioned.
If these people won't help themselves, what the hell did they think was going to happen?
Remember the Iraqi army surrendering in droves to drones etc?

same thing.
They outnumbered the Taliban by 4:1 yest folded like a pack of cards.
Now we are supposed to support a max exodus?

Sorry but Biden shouldn't have advertised a complete withdrawal like that.
His senility creeped out again.

[Andy_Faber]

Cultural? Such as who/which?

To apply a massive generalisation: 'Middle Eastern/South Asian' as opposed to 'European/Western'. I paraphrased an anecdote from someone of that general area, and gave another anecdote, but if you want to trade anecdotes I could offer hundreds, and from my POV its not an adverse criticism, its a reflection of the fact that people the world over are not the same. You want diversity, you get folk who don't play the game by your local rules, and to quote the words of Ed rooney,'suck it up buttercup'. Its another aspect of the arrogance Swale talks of, expecting The Taliban to play by our rules

[ramAnag]

Yes Blair did lie. He thundered in his speeches that invading Afghanistan was that he promised the defeat of jihadism and the promotion of freedom. "This is a battle with only one outcome: our victory, not theirs,"
He relished the war streak in him, in the same way as he did, dragging us into the invasion of Iraq.
Once in, it was harder to come out than it ever was to go in.

Iraq was about ego and political gains, both sides of the Atlantic.
Afghanistan was about revenge for ISIS attacks and to take down the terrorists home base.


Personally, I'd have backed the assault on Bin Ladens forces, but no way was it correct to stay there.
They had to learn, that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. My disdain, is that the back lash didn't stretch to Pakistan and Saudi.

It is also apparent, that the Arab world is absolutely piss poor at policing itself.
Factions within factions, reignited many tribal conflicts stretching back thousands of years. It also why, I am against the willy nilly flooding of Islam throughout Europe.
The trouble it has caused is there for all to see. Germany/France/Sweden/Belgium/Denmark.
It is ok talking about saving those "POOR REFUGEES", but the problems come with them as well.

Going in, gave us a responsibilty to stabilise and secure. We have failed and Biden exasperated the failure.

In his defense though, I will say this. I have read many stories of British combat vets, talking about training the Afghan army. Chocolate fireguard and the backbone of a jelly fish got mentioned.
If these people won't help themselves, what the hell did they think was going to happen?
Remember the Iraqi army surrendering in droves to drones etc?

same thing.
They outnumbered the Taliban by 4:1 yest folded like a pack of cards.
Now we are supposed to support a max exodus?

Sorry but Biden shouldn't have advertised a complete withdrawal like that.
His senility creeped out again.

Yes he did say that...but where is the lie?
Blair was a fine orator...surely the best since Churchill. It was an impassioned speech outlining his hopes at a time of huge crisis, but if you’re going to judge the failure - twenty years later - of those aims as a reason for saying he ‘lied’ I suspect you’ll find he is but one amongst many.

He also, in the same speech I think, referred to the crucial importance of ‘the moral power of the world acting as a community’ and said... ‘the starving, the wretched, the dispossessed, the ignorant, they are our cause too.’ I prefer those bits and they’ve seldom been more relevant than they are today.

[Trickytreesreds]

Yes he did say that...but where is the lie?
Blair was a fine orator...surely the best since Churchill. It was an impassioned speech outlining his hopes at a time of huge crisis, but if you’re going to judge the failure - twenty years later - of those aims as a reason for saying he ‘lied’ I suspect you’ll find he is but one amongst many.

He also, in the same speech I think, referred to the crucial importance of ‘the moral power of the world acting as a community’ and said... ‘the starving, the wretched, the dispossessed, the ignorant, they are our cause too.’ I prefer those bits and they’ve seldom been more relevant than they are today.

Yes I accept that.
But Blair hardly gets any recognition for morality and acting in the worlds best interest.
At the time it sounded good, but where was long term satement.

I remember that speech. At the time he claimed that 4 million Afghans were on the move. 2 million were in Pakistan and 1.5 million in Iran.

Can I reverse this to ask, if this had been the UK. Would 7.5 million Brits run away from the Taliban taking hold of our country?
Something is seriously wrong here and Blair used British lives to do something the Afghans wouldn't.

[ramAnag]

To apply a massive generalisation: 'Middle Eastern/South Asian' as opposed to 'European/Western'. I paraphrased an anecdote from someone of that general area, and gave another anecdote, but if you want to trade anecdotes I could offer hundreds, and from my POV its not an adverse criticism, its a reflection of the fact that people the world over are not the same. You want diversity, you get folk who don't play the game by your local rules, and to quote the words of Ed rooney,'suck it up buttercup'. Its another aspect of the arrogance Swale talks of, expecting The Taliban to play by our rules

So ultimately you seem to be suggesting that ‘Middle Eastern/South Asian’ people are not as reliable or trustworthy as ‘European/Western’ people.

As you said, ‘a massive generalisation’...and you really wonder why Swale suggested what he did?

Many people don’t play the game by what you refer to as my ‘local rules’...including many bankers, estate agents, used car salesmen, politicians etc. They have a different culture, in terms of moral compass, to most...but it has nothing to do with their national heritage.

I agree that you can’t expect the Taliban to ‘play’ by anyone’s rules other than their own...but then I remember feeling exactly the same about the IRA after Birmingham/Warrington/Manchester etc.

[ramAnag]

Can I reverse this to ask, if this had been the UK. Would 7.5 million Brits run away from the Taliban taking hold of our country?
Something is seriously wrong here and Blair used British lives to do something the Afghans wouldn't.

Thankfully I don’t know, Tricky. It’s easy to come on a football forum and start criticising people as having the ‘spine of a jellyfish’.
I know nothing about you beyond your persona on here, but personally if I was a poor Afghan national confronted by a Taliban ‘army’ I’d be bloody terrified.

[Trickytreesreds]

Thankfully I don’t know, Tricky. It’s easy to come on a football forum and start criticising people as having the ‘spine of a jellyfish’.
I know nothing about you beyond your persona on here, but personally if I was a poor Afghan national confronted by a Taliban ‘army’ I’d be bloody terrified.

On your own you would, I understand that.
But I have just told you, the Afghan army outnumbered the Taliban 4:1. Had full battle training and modern equipment, including an airforce. Then there are the millions of citizens running away.
There is a common theme here. Whilst Western soldiers were there taking the cause, they were happy.
The stomach for a fight it appears is zero.

Now even though you say you are terrified, given the choice you and your neighbours would defend you friends and family. It's our nature.
So why won't the Afghans fight?
Women and children it seem,s come last from loads of these countries in the middle east and Africa, on the "move"

1940 Britian stood alone against terrifying odds. Hitler did not particularly wish to invade Britain; after the fall of France, he assumed the British would simply surrender. Hitler was therefore surprised when Britain did not surrender.

Even Blair said, to gain peace, there are times you have to fight.

[swaledale]

On your own you would, I understand that.
But I have just told you, the Afghan army outnumbered the Taliban 4:1. Had full battle training and modern equipment, including an airforce. Then there are the millions of citizens running away.
There is a common theme here. Whilst Western soldiers were there taking the cause, they were happy.
The stomach for a fight it appears is zero.

Now even though you say you are terrified, given the choice you and your neighbours would defend you friends and family. It's our nature.
So why won't the Afghans fight?
Women and children it seem,s come last from loads of these countries in the middle east and Africa, on the "move"

1940 Britian stood alone against terrifying odds. Hitler did not particularly wish to invade Britain; after the fall of France, he assumed the British would simply surrender. Hitler was therefore surprised when Britain did not surrender.

Even Blair said, to gain peace, there are times you have to fight.

You are grossly over simplifying what is a complicated situation- after all its basically a civil war situation, the Taliban are Afghans, just happen to have been denigrated by the west, but then so was Sadam Hussain and dozen other leaders in different countries, manipulated and used by the UK and USA according to whether they perceived there to be a western interest!

Those Afghans may ahve had lots of US provided equipment, but the simple fact is they did not have the capability to to use it, its too technically advanced for people whose technical experience is somewhere between the 1970's and late 1980's.

This situation was inevitable once the US decided to withdraw and set a date for that withdrawal. Not sure how that Biden's alleged senility has anything to do wtih this, he may ahve publicly disclosed the date but the manner and timescale has been set by his advisers.

[Andy_Faber]

So ultimately you seem to be suggesting that ‘Middle Eastern/South Asian’ people are not as reliable or trustworthy as ‘European/Western’ people.

As you said, ‘a massive generalisation’...and you really wonder why Swale suggested what he did?

Many people don’t play the game by what you refer to as my ‘local rules’...including many bankers, estate agents, used car salesmen, politicians etc. They have a different culture, in terms of moral compass, to most...but it has nothing to do with their national heritage.

I agree that you can’t expect the Taliban to ‘play’ by anyone’s rules other than their own...but then I remember feeling exactly the same about the IRA after Birmingham/Warrington/Manchester etc.

You're on your usual 'divert by confusion' Crusade rA. You're damned right bankers, politicians, car salesmen, politicians play the game by their own rules, and we can agree freely about that, but what makes you scared to admit that such judgements apply to other 'groups' including geographical? - and I'm not sure by the way I ever mentioned 'national'. If you either choose to, or are wired up to be unable to, temper your interaction with people based on a hundred different factors including origin you are, as I've touched on before, 'different' to the rest of us and as naive as the negotiators with The Taliban. We've done the traveller one to death, but it does kinda prove a point of which this is another example.

[Trickytreesreds]

You are grossly over simplifying what is a complicated situation- after all its basically a civil war situation, the Taliban are Afghans, just happen to have been denigrated by the west, but then so was Sadam Hussain and dozen other leaders in different countries, manipulated and used by the UK and USA according to whether they perceived there to be a western interest!

Those Afghans may ahve had lots of US provided equipment, but the simple fact is they did not have the capability to to use it, its too technically advanced for people whose technical experience is somewhere between the 1970's and late 1980's.

This situation was inevitable once the US decided to withdraw and set a date for that withdrawal. Not sure how that Biden's alleged senility has anything to do wtih this, he may ahve publicly disclosed the date but the manner and timescale has been set by his advisers.

Swale I agree with most of that. Which is why I advocate keeping our noses out.
British citizens were killed in 9/11. It warrented a full military response. But as for policing that country/ arming it/ dabbling in its politics? No way.

As far as Biden is concerned. If you are telling he's a full sandwich, then I'm stunned. Have you listened to his speeches? He is obviously ill and dosn't know where he is half the time.
He was the nice, white Grandpa stooge, they shoved in front to oust Trump.
He looks harmless, looks nice and upsets no one.
YET HE IS IN CHARGE OF THE FREE WORLD.
This is an almighty **** up on his watch.

[Trickytreesreds]

You're on your usual 'divert by confusion' Crusade rA. You're damned right bankers, politicians, car salesmen, politicians play the game by their own rules, and we can agree freely about that, but what makes you scared to admit that such judgements apply to other 'groups' including geographical? - and I'm not sure by the way I ever mentioned 'national'. If you either choose to, or are wired up to be unable to, temper your interaction with people based on a hundred different factors including origin you are, as I've touched on before, 'different' to the rest of us and as naive as the negotiators with The Taliban. We've done the traveller one to death, but it does kinda prove a point of which this is another example.

I have this image of RA, as one the nicest persons in the world. Sunshine/rainbows/ lovely fluffy clouds.
If the world was like him, it would be a wonderful place.
But it isn't unfortunately. It is full of nasty/devious/vicious/evil people and regimes out there.
Come across as nice and weak all the time and you will get abused and bullied at some point.
Even his defense of Blair was in contradiction of Blairs own philosophy on it. WANT PEACE, GET READY TO FIGHT FOR IT.