OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

Waaaay too many people are in denial about way too many things.

I ask again...’who’s in denial and about what’? How is this ‘massively counterproductive’ and hindering ‘resolution of the world’s/UK’s thorniest problems’?

So far you’ve come up with ‘waaay too many people’ and a possible example of Lilly Allen’s naive hypocrisy. Setting aside the example of a second rate singer, WHO and WHAT are you talking about?

[Andy_Faber]

I ask again...’who’s in denial and about what’? How is this ‘massively counterproductive’ and hindering ‘resolution of the world’s/UK’s thorniest problems’?

So far you’ve come up with ‘waaay too many people’ and a possible example of Lilly Allen’s naive hypocrisy. Setting aside the example of a second rate singer, WHO and WHAT are you talking about?

Obviously I can't name names because its 'ordinary Joe' (and Jane, better not upsetanyone)

But I'll ive you three examples without going remotely near the 'lefty-beating' you might expect

The US gun lobby.
Covid deniers
Hunting (ie fox hunting on horseback) supporters (one I've been on both sides of over the years)

And a fourth, the biggest of all

People who wont accept/admit there is fault on both/all sides, but not necessarily in equal measure

[MadAmster]

Covid deniers. Reported in the Dutch Press this morning that hospitals are getting ever more issues with people admitted who believe the virus doesn't exist and therefore refuse to be tested. Thos people are still being treated so kudos to the medical staff.

I understand the patients though, as someone who believes there isn't a virus at all, you'd really look stupid if you tested positive.

[ramAnag]

Obviously I can't name names because its 'ordinary Joe' (and Jane, better not upsetanyone)

But I'll ive you three examples without going remotely near the 'lefty-beating' you might expect

The US gun lobby.
Covid deniers
Hunting (ie fox hunting on horseback) supporters (one I've been on both sides of over the years)

And a fourth, the biggest of all

People who wont accept/admit there is fault on both/all sides, but not necessarily in equal measure

Wasn’t expecting ‘lefty beating’, although I was expecting something more specifically relevant to what we’d been talking about.

I guess the last one may fall into that category in which case I’ll attempt to explain my stance.
I completely accept that the worst examples of terrorism aimed at the West during the course of this century have been inspired/led by Islamic fundamentalists.
Equally, during the last thirty or so years of the twentieth century the worst examples of terrorism within the UK were inspired by a combination of Irish Catholic and Protestant fundamentalism.
Tbh I don’t care whether terrorism takes the form of an IRA attack on the centre of Birmingham/Warrington, the UDF ‘kneecapping’ Catholics, a gas attack on the Tokyo underground, the Hindutva in India or a fundamentalist Muslim attack on the Manchester Arena...I abhor it all, as I’m sure we all do.
I do though think that terrorism invariably has its roots amongst people who feel wronged, threatened and/or alienated. It doesn’t ever justify attacks on innocent people, imo...but it is something we have to recognise and address and is yet another example of the need for countries to act as a global community rather than as isolated ‘greed-mongers’.

Hope that’s cleared that up and I have every sympathy with your other three examples. Rev rA.

[Geoff Parkstone]

"and is yet another example of the need for countries to act as a global community rather than as isolated ‘greed-mongers’."

The problem with this perspective, which I endorse in principle, is that there is no necessary correlation between terrorist bodies and countries / states.

Example - did the provisional IRA represent the views of the country which they purported to act on behalf of, did the actions of Al Quaeda represent the views of Saudi Arabia (the nationality of bin Laden) of Pakistan or of Afghanistan (where the organisation had bases)?

Answer - no. So you could get total unanimity between countries to act as a global community, but that means absolutely nothing more than rhetoric if minority groups within those countries or pan national groups across 2 or more countries are the architects of the terrorist atrocity. Pretty much never do we see 100% state inspired terrorism - except maybe Russian cyber terrorism or North Korea.

If individual countries cannot control their nationals, what hope do we have?

[Andy_Faber]

Wasn’t expecting ‘lefty beating’, although I was expecting something more specifically relevant to what we’d been talking about.

I guess the last one may fall into that category in which case I’ll attempt to explain my stance.
I completely accept that the worst examples of terrorism aimed at the West during the course of this century have been inspired/led by Islamic fundamentalists.
Equally, during the last thirty or so years of the twentieth century the worst examples of terrorism within the UK were inspired by a combination of Irish Catholic and Protestant fundamentalism.
Tbh I don’t care whether terrorism takes the form of an IRA attack on the centre of Birmingham/Warrington, the UDF ‘kneecapping’ Catholics, a gas attack on the Tokyo underground, the Hindutva in India or a fundamentalist Muslim attack on the Manchester Arena...I abhor it all, as I’m sure we all do.
I do though think that terrorism invariably has its roots amongst people who feel wronged, threatened and/or alienated. It doesn’t ever justify attacks on innocent people, imo...but it is something we have to recognise and address and is yet another example of the need for countries to act as a global community rather than as isolated ‘greed-mongers’.

Hope that’s cleared that up and I have every sympathy with your other three examples. Rev rA.

Thanks and yes, totally fair response although it wasn’t actually added as a dig at you

I’ve read gp’s response too, and therein lies the problem (or one of them) with the issue at hand

[ramAnag]

"and is yet another example of the need for countries to act as a global community rather than as isolated ‘greed-mongers’."

The problem with this perspective, which I endorse in principle, is that there is no necessary correlation between terrorist bodies and countries / states.

Example - did the provisional IRA represent the views of the country which they purported to act on behalf of, did the actions of Al Quaeda represent the views of Saudi Arabia (the nationality of bin Laden) of Pakistan or of Afghanistan (where the organisation had bases)?

Answer - no. So you could get total unanimity between countries to act as a global community, but that means absolutely nothing more than rhetoric if minority groups within those countries or pan national groups across 2 or more countries are the architects of the terrorist atrocity. Pretty much never do we see 100% state inspired terrorism - except maybe Russian cyber terrorism or North Korea.

If individual countries cannot control their nationals, what hope do we have?

I wasn’t actually referring to the countries where terrorism has its roots...rather more the G20...United Nations...acting together to eradicate the conditions which allow terrorism to thrive.

You say, ‘what hope do we have?’ I’ll say, ‘what choice do we have?’ If we are to overcome terrorism, famine, global warming etc we have to act with a common aim and stop relying on the U.S. - with us hitching a lift on their shoulders - acting as the World’s (often corrupt) ‘policeman’...imo.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I somehow don't think we can have been relying on the USA as regards global warming in the past 5 years under Sir Donald

I fear however that we will never overcome famine and global warming, leading to more mass migrations, more border closing, more disharmony and as a knock on effect, more terrorism as society slowly breaks down.

On which optimistic note I will get back to work

[Andy_Faber]

...acting together to eradicate the conditions which allow terrorism to thrive.

But how's that possible when the only condition required is the proximity of the fundamentalist and the impressionable? and assuming you mean eradicating poverty/depravation, that is no solution when the purpose of the fundamentalism is as straightforward as imposition of a single belief system no matter what the social conditions

[ramAnag]

I don’t pretend to know how, AF...but simple acceptance of GP’s second paragraph as representing the inevitable future is too bleak and depressing to allow.

We have to look beyond just shrugging our shoulders and washing our hands of the problems posed in poorer more troublesome parts of the world. We wouldn’t do that with our own families and one only has to look at the reaction to Covid to realise what is possible.
A year ago we’d all have been saying...but how can we do anything about this...it’ll be years before we have a vaccine...but then the scientific world got its arse in gear and, despite the best efforts of certain politicians across the world, the impossible became possible.

At the risk of sounding like a vicar again...where there’s a will, there’s a way...but first we have to get rid of the ‘survival of the fittest’ mentality which, coincidentally, is exactly what the pandemic vaccination strategy acknowledged.

[Trickytreesreds]

I don’t pretend to know how, AF...but simple acceptance of GP’s second paragraph as representing the inevitable future is too bleak and depressing to allow.

We have to look beyond just shrugging our shoulders and washing our hands of the problems posed in poorer more troublesome parts of the world. We wouldn’t do that with our own families and one only has to look at the reaction to Covid to realise what is possible.
A year ago we’d all have been saying...but how can we do anything about this...it’ll be years before we have a vaccine...but then the scientific world got its arse in gear and, despite the best efforts of certain politicians across the world, the impossible became possible.

At the risk of sounding like a vicar again...where there’s a will, there’s a way...but first we have to get rid of the ‘survival of the fittest’ mentality which, coincidentally, is exactly what the pandemic vaccination strategy acknowledged.

Lovely words RA, I wish I could feel the same way.
But lets be honest here, can you really see Russia/China/USA, then a whole host of smaller, but richer nations really adopting that?
No.neither can I.
But for some reason, there is an element in this country that insists we do more than anyone else to set an example, that everyone else ignores.

There in lies the conundrum. When we do this, to help the poor world, its our own poorer people who suffer more.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I don’t pretend to know how, AF...but simple acceptance of GP’s second paragraph as representing the inevitable future is too bleak and depressing to allow.

We have to look beyond just shrugging our shoulders and washing our hands of the problems posed in poorer more troublesome parts of the world. We wouldn’t do that with our own families and one only has to look at the reaction to Covid to realise what is possible.
A year ago we’d all have been saying...but how can we do anything about this...it’ll be years before we have a vaccine...but then the scientific world got its arse in gear and, despite the best efforts of certain politicians across the world, the impossible became possible.

At the risk of sounding like a vicar again...where there’s a will, there’s a way...but first we have to get rid of the ‘survival of the fittest’ mentality which, coincidentally, is exactly what the pandemic vaccination strategy acknowledged.

How can I put it nicely. The words of a theoretician, a fantasist, a dreamer? Not wanting to sound harsh but how do you translate this into an environment where cash is king?

COVID 19 was "solved" by science, in a sense - in realty there is no solution, more a matter of living with it as best we can. yes science created a variety of vaccines - notwithstanding the views of the non vaxxers - but no matter what a great effort that was, its a bit like having passed your 11+ when we need a PhD or better to solve global warming or global poverty/famine.

Why?

Well, put simply, there was a will to solve COVID as it hit everyone, rich or poor, albeit in different degrees. A dead rich man smells just as bad as a dead poor one after a week.

To solve Global warming requires first defeating those who are profiting (short termist but enough for them) from the very causes of global warming. These vested interests are immensely wealthy and with wealth comes enormous power. They will nod and smile to Greta's face, but behind closed doors.... To complicate it still further, those rich and powerful vested interests are not just "captains of industry" or politicians - they are you and me, via our pension funds. To even start on this issue means a switch to ethical investments by the fund managers, and the acceptance by you me and everyone out there that yields will fall and perhaps 20% will be wiped off our pension values.

To solve poverty and famine, you need to reduce global population to a sustainable level. Lets say that should be 5 billion, not 7.7 billion as it stands. Don't ask me how as it still continues to rise at an alarming rate. Malthus had one way to cure this - but mass warfare isn't a socially acceptable way to regulate population growth and pandemics we seem to have got better at stopping: 4 - 5 million global deaths doesn't begin to make a hole in population growth. The core problem here is vested in mankind's inherent need to procreate - every living being has it preprogrammed, but we are allegedly sufficiently sentient to see the consequences, and, being at the top of the food chain, we have to be the self regulators. But we cannot / choose not to.

So call me a cynic, a pessimist or even maybe a realist. I will call you a dreamer, a fantasist, a hippy in your jester's hat with bells on. I hope the hell you are right, but I have serious doubts and cannot see beyond man's greed and self interest driving us deeper into the hole. After all the past 2 millenia of history have been driven by greed with no regard to sustainability: I cant see what will stop that runaway truck.

[ramAnag]

Lovely words RA, I wish I could feel the same way.
But lets be honest here, can you really see Russia/China/USA, then a whole host of smaller, but richer nations really adopting that?
No.neither can I.
But for some reason, there is an element in this country that insists we do more than anyone else to set an example, that everyone else ignores.

There in lies the conundrum. When we do this, to help the poor world, its our own poorer people who suffer more.

You do seem obsessed with us doing more than anyone else, Tricky. It’s a recurrent theme.
I don’t deny that I’m being idealistic, but I’m really not expecting us to do more than others...that’s not and never has been my point.

You and GP are probably right, I know that...and yes we’ll probably continue, as both a world and a nation, on the road to ruin because the majority - as exemplified by the majority and the two of you - will dismiss the alternative as being nothing more than idealistic, head in the clouds claptrap.

[Geoff Parkstone]

You do seem obsessed with us doing more than anyone else, Tricky. It’s a recurrent theme.
I don’t deny that I’m being idealistic, but I’m really not expecting us to do more than others...that’s not and never has been my point.

You and GP are probably right, I know that...and yes we’ll probably continue, as both a world and a nation, on the road to ruin because the majority - as exemplified by the majority and the two of you - will dismiss the alternative as being nothing more than idealistic, head in the clouds claptrap.

OK, go on then - present an alternate solution that we can buy in to. I'd love to be part of a solution, but you offer no solution beyond the "we can all work together" happy clappy claptrap. Work together and DO WHAT? You don't present an alternative solution, you present a loved up dream. Find one, I'll back you all the way

[ramAnag]

GP...which bit of ‘I don’t pretend to know’ and ‘I know I’m being idealistic’ do you not understand?
You accept that your own hard bitten survival of the fittest philosophy doesn’t end well. Recognition by world leaders of the need to stop ‘squabbling’ and engage in some compassionate joined up thought would be a start.
We’ve come close to that realisation where vaccines are concerned and it has to be the case with global warming...i.e. no point in worrying about electric cars in the UK if much larger countries are going to keep on pumping out fossil fuel based pollution...so why not elsewhere?

P.S. Going off at a bit of a tangent. It’s slightly ironic that your attitude of support for the underdog and contempt for the wealthy ‘big boys’ of the Premiership - survival of the fittest encapsulated - doesn’t extend beyond the relatively meaningless realms of football.