OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

Most, if not all, quickly lost direction and turned into pub crawls which were fun, and the primary reason why most of us went, but no exactly instruments of change.

This perhaps tells us more about the young GP than it does about student demonstrations in the early-mid seventies.

[Geoff Parkstone]

It may

[swaledale]

I was with you until the last bit, I mean, there's a difference between bumping your head after reading the "mind your head" sign, and jumping off a bridge with concrete tied to your knackers.

I can see why you might think that, but in reality, what would Corbyn have done that was worse than Johnson? I mean in reality, not the overblown exaggerated crap that the right wing press and indeed some centre road press pushed out?

I mean one has to remember whatever some of the more esoteric ideas were put forward, there is then the small issue of getting these things passed in parliament.

[swaledale]

Mostly I remember them aimed at smashing the social contract which I think was a Wilson government approach to curtailing trade union power. A few were more self interested and geared towards increasing the student grant - which didn't happen. Most, if not all, quickly lost direction and turned into pub crawls which were fun, and the primary reason why most of us went, but no exactly instruments of change.

Ah you see I was more involved in things such as gay rights, anti apartheid, rent strikes, stopping the development of green spaces, a few picket lines in disputes.

[Geoff Parkstone]

which University were you at?

[Geoff Parkstone]

I can see why you might think that, but in reality, what would Corbyn have done that was worse than Johnson? I mean in reality, not the overblown exaggerated crap that the right wing press and indeed some centre road press pushed out?

I mean one has to remember whatever some of the more esoteric ideas were put forward, there is then the small issue of getting these things passed in parliament.

An interesting question - what might the Big C have done that was worse than Johnners. No-one will know probably as his policies did not revolve around a pandemic happening on his watch, and anything he may have been trying to instigate would have been sunk by covid before they could get off the ground.

As regards brexit he had always been anti Europe and I suspect it would have been hugely unlikely that he would have suddenly turned "remain" were he in the hot seat. So under Corbyn I imagine Brexit would have gone ahead as well, although the terms of departure may have differed.

As regards Covid, I doubt much different would have happened, especially since the same scientific advisers would have been in place. Hopefully he would not have followed the route of his brother.

Once those matters were "put to bed", and at a time when Corbyn could begin to have put his policies into place, we then get the Ukraine-Russia conflict together with fuel price inflation and the now wave of wage demands and strikes being threatened. Again largely due to external factors.

So Id say that Corbyn policies would have mostly ended up the same as Johnson's, somewhat perversely, as they were driven by the referendum result and unexpected external factors, and neither could really stamp their own authority on the process. There may have been less sleaze and corruption, less partying but that's little stuff, and who know what equivalent things may have been raked up under Corbyn - I dont think the anti semitism issue has still been fully resolved, for instance.

I think in retrospect Corbyn may well be pleased to have lost the election, and labour most certainly should consider themselves lucky to have done so. I have always held that whatever party had to execute Brexit would wish it had been the other side that had done it, as it was a mandate for losing power for the next decade. Covid allowed Johnson some breathing room, but eventually it brought him down. Were there a credible opposition now, I think the decade out of power remains a strong probability, but Corbyn wont be there to revel in it.

[swaledale]

An interesting question - what might the Big C have done that was worse than Johnners. No-one will know probably as his policies did not revolve around a pandemic happening on his watch, and anything he may have been trying to instigate would have been sunk by covid before they could get off the ground.

As regards brexit he had always been anti Europe and I suspect it would have been hugely unlikely that he would have suddenly turned "remain" were he in the hot seat. So under Corbyn I imagine Brexit would have gone ahead as well, although the terms of departure may have differed.

As regards Covid, I doubt much different would have happened, especially since the same scientific advisers would have been in place. Hopefully he would not have followed the route of his brother.

Once those matters were "put to bed", and at a time when Corbyn could begin to have put his policies into place, we then get the Ukraine-Russia conflict together with fuel price inflation and the now wave of wage demands and strikes being threatened. Again largely due to external factors.

So Id say that Corbyn policies would have mostly ended up the same as Johnson's, somewhat perversely, as they were driven by the referendum result and unexpected external factors, and neither could really stamp their own authority on the process. There may have been less sleaze and corruption, less partying but that's little stuff, and who know what equivalent things may have been raked up under Corbyn - I dont think the anti semitism issue has still been fully resolved, for instance.

I think in retrospect Corbyn may well be pleased to have lost the election, and labour most certainly should consider themselves lucky to have done so. I have always held that whatever party had to execute Brexit would wish it had been the other side that had done it, as it was a mandate for losing power for the next decade. Covid allowed Johnson some breathing room, but eventually it brought him down. Were there a credible opposition now, I think the decade out of power remains a strong probability, but Corbyn wont be there to revel in it.

There is a lot of truth in what you have said, but what I would take issue with is that Corbyn's policies would have ended up like Johnson's or in fact be anything like how he handled things. The two were as different as chalk and cheese.

Corbyn's weakest area was Brexit, but I don't see he was driven by the referendum result - Johnson seized an opportunity for power by changing from remain to leave, what his public pronouncements, he was never an advocate of leave in fact I struggle to think of a policy or principle he has got (apart from feeding his own ego and making money as easy as possible.).

Whereas whatever you may think of them Corbyn does have strong ideas and principles and had a range of policies - I mean who would have thought nationalising the utilities would be a good idea?).

In terms of Brexit, Corbyn was in a bit of a bind, he personally distrusted the EU- indeed many unions did ironically seeing it as an attack on workers, whereas the right saw it an attack on capital doing as it wished! However, his proposal, which was to negotiate a deal and then put that to a ballot - that was overlooked by a welter of other policies. One of the issues was Corbyn wasn't fixated on Brexit to the degree Johnson was and who made "Getting Brexit Done" his slogan, a classic right wing political trick - a simple slogan with absolutely no substance behind it.

Corbyn was not slick enough and could not get his ideas across ( a real weakness, but an ironic one, seeing as people claim to want truth, straight talking and real ideas as against slick smart suited politicians making vague promises, but always seem to vote for the latter!). The lesson there is that the average voter likes a simple proposition, not a realistic set of policies.

I suspect that we'd have end in a softer Brexit and with better relations with the EU, not had the noisy, childish arrogant stance taken by Johnson. But we will never know, there clearly was a better way of managing Brexit, but I guess when you have promised something that could not and can never be delivered, then one has to make a lot of noise and find scapegoats to hide the reality.

As for Covid, interesting really, again yes there may have been the same advisors, but the way it was handled would have been very different- Corbyn certainly wouldn't taken the "its nothing but bad flu" approach combined with a "herd immunity" policy which Johnson tried in the early days.

We certainly wouldn't have seen the billions spent on PPE, and testing etc. that somehow was all directed at firms operated by people many of whom were relatives, or donors or mates of Tory politicians. So £40 billion plus would have been saved there for a start!!

I really don't get this anti Semitism stuff! Well I do, its a deliberate smear campaign because Corbyn was notably in support of the Palestinian cause - it was used, disgracefully in my opinion by centre right Labour party members and certain members of the Jewish community to smear him. he certainly did not advance any anti Semitic policies or causes.

Were there internal party issues? yes, that is definitely the case and they weren't handled very well by the party and the matter wasn't dealt with well by Corbyn. But was that worse or any different from similar issues within the Conservative party? Having looked at this I can't see any evidence that this is the case. Being critical of Israel is not anti Semitism.

Why tot he average voter the internal machinations of a political party would matter is puzzling, surely what they do in government is whats important?

Its tempting to say that the Ukraine war is solely the cause of current issues. But IF we had a decent Brexit deal then the impact would not have been so great and lets not forget, that a decade or more of poor economic policy and reckless quantitive easing has fuelled inflation. Corbyn i suspect would have reacted very differently to Johnson and we would not have this insane focus on tax cuts.

[swaledale]

which University were you at?

Newcastle in the late 70's

[Geoff Parkstone]

Newcastle in the late 70's

A hotbed of revolutionaries, Amber and Fed ales and football luminaries such as Aidan McCaffery

[MadAmster]

Being critical of Israel is not anti Semitism.

That was true until they decided to change the definition to include any and all criticism of Israel as anti-semitism. Daftest thing about that is that not all Israelis, not by a long chalk, are of semite descent.

[Andy_Faber]

Yeah Pops, I remember you saying something like that, I also remember you avoiding answering why you were so concerned about the supposed over representation of ethnic minorities in the media and how chuffed you were when apparently you were right!! So forgive me if I say that your opinion on this issue is somewhat suspect.

I suppose the fact that your second cousin is a diversity analysist for a right wing think tank led you down this path or perhaps it was your latent racism that was the cause of your concern?

But lets just stop and examine what you are in effect telling us. That making a reference or seeing a parallel to Hitler/Nazis in the way right wing governments today are increasingly authoritarian, that a populist political approach, which is based more on simplistic slogans and blaming other people, groups of people or even other nations or in the case of the Eu groups of nations is not similar to how Hitler operated?

That in all the cases mentioned, that be Johnson and the current Tory government, Trump in the US or the governments in Hungary and Poland have been democratically elected, but then sort to introduce laws which are ever more restrictive and authoritarian in the guise that they are necessary to improve/preserve the society which the majority of people want?

In fact in a previous post I actually listed all the issues which the Johnson government had done which were direct parallels with the Nazi play book.

a few examples demonise immigrants, attack unions, restrict the right to protest, demonise the EU, blame France, pretend the sovereignty of the Uk is at risk, overinflate the Uk's standing in the world, excessive flag waving.

But don't take my word for it - do a little bit of research and you will find that there are a number of respected and knowledgeable academics (some from Cambridge Uni no less), political commentators and journalists who see the same thing to varying degrees.

But no Faber has spoken, nothing to see here.

Well sorry pal, on this as indeed on many other things, you have an opinion but the evidence suggests your wrong!

On the other hand, one of the classic Nazi/Hitler approach, is repeat a lie often enough and people think its the truth, so you keep repeating this lie, and if we come full circle and note your oft repeated concern about ethnic minorities in the media and perhaps there is another conclusion to be reached here, one that shows your more unsavoury side?

I’ll just repeat what I’ve said many times, I’ve got to you. If not, why would you spend so much time rattling on about issues that I don’t? I think it’s a touch of jealousy that I have, or have had, the odd connection that you don’t. It was the same with TTR, you became obsessed - who next, GP?

[ramAnag]

I’ll just repeat what I’ve said many times, I’ve got to you. If not, why would you spend so much time rattling on about issues that I don’t? I think it’s a touch of jealousy that I have, or have had, the odd connection that you don’t. It was the same with TTR, you became obsessed - who next, GP?

Lol...I guess this is really Swale’s argument but seeing as we’re, according to you, ‘two peas in a pod’ I’ll chuck in my two penny worth.

You, and only you raised, and continue to raise, the issue of ethnic minorities in the media.

Drawing attention to the way in which current right wing leaders seek to emulate Hitler is a valid point which, for some reason, you get ever so stroppy about.

The examples of strategies that such governments employ is another valid point that you repeatedly avoid commenting on.

Why oh why would anyone be remotely ‘jealous’ of your ‘odd’ connections? That’s just weird.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Lol...I guess this is really Swale’s argument but seeing as we’re apparently ‘two peas in a pod’ I’ll chuck in my two penny worth.

You, and only you raised, and continue to raise, the issue of ethnic minorities in the media.

Drawing attention to the way in which current right wing leaders seek to emulate Hitler is a valid point which, for some reason, you get ever so stroppy about.

The examples of strategies that such governments employ is another valid point that you repeatedly avoid commenting on.

Why oh why would anyone be remotely ‘jealous’ of your ‘odd’ connections. That’s just weird.

I am, I'm insanely jealous of the fact that he nearly got to shag Sonja Krystina

[MadAmster]

Some sources are now predicting a house market crash, pretty much as happened in the great crash of the 30s. They are saying it's as orchestrated as that previous house market crash was.

Is this the haves making sure the have nots stay that way?

[ramAnag]

I am, I'm insanely jealous of the fact that he nearly got to shag Sonja Krystina

Lol...she’s 73 you know...and I think it was a (no tongues) kiss. By the same token I ‘nearly got to shag’ Grace Slick (82)...well I stood in the same room and breathed the same air.