OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Trickytreesreds]

Okay...they weren’t from the Guardian...but have it your own way and you keep bringing up your belief in Brexit if it helps.
All the evidence points otherwise but heh ho...you can take a horse to water.

If you don’t want to take any notice of me then listen to Sith...he makes some excellent points above and seems particularly well informed regarding the shortage of drivers. It’s a problem I raised over a year ago but you, and he who is always right, dismissed it as unfounded and untrue.

Dude, we didn't.
We raised the point that the driver shortage was Europe wide as well. It is now a well known fact that east europeans are not as poor as they were and don't feel the need to chase peanuts for wages.
It is an old argument, that has since seen lorry drivers get a massive wage rise, but you keep deluding yourself, that they did it for the love of the EU.
yOU CAN'T KEEP BLAMING BREXIT FOR ALL OUR WOES.

Yes, it has added to it, but is a long way from our troubles. Remainers though, ignore all the other factors and use this as a weapon to suit their crusade.
You would have seen very little difference economy wise had we remained. That much I am perfectly sure of.
As for taking an extra 30 seconds in a border check, I'll live it thanks. It isn't worth the tears.

[Trickytreesreds]

TTR (and Sith if you’re interested) I think rA is referring to me here

I believe he is great Sage.

But come the revolution brother, you are first against the wall, bop,bop,bop.
Freedom for Matlock

[ramAnag]

Dude, we didn't.
We raised the point that the driver shortage was Europe wide as well. It is now a well known fact that east europeans are not as poor as they were and don't feel the need to chase peanuts for wages.
It is an old argument, that has since seen lorry drivers get a massive wage rise, but you keep deluding yourself, that they
yOU CAN'T KEEP BLAMING BREXIT FOR ALL OUR WOES.


You would have seen very little difference economy wise had we remained. That much I am perfectly sure of.
As for taking an extra 30 seconds in a border check, I'll live it thanks. It isn't worth the tears.

I don’t ‘keep blaming Brexit for all our woes’. Indeed I don’t believe I’d contributed to the thread or commented on Brexit, prior to you resurrecting your defence of it, since October 9th.

What I do is challenge your defence of Brexit and identify areas where Brexit is to blame for our woes and, whether you like it or not, there are plenty.

As for your ‘30 seconds extra at a border check’. I’ve no idea how accurate that is and imagine it varies somewhat, but let’s agree with your average estimate. That’s 30 seconds x about 180 on an average Ryanair flight or 30 seconds x approaching 2500 on the ferry I used to go to and from Santander in September/October.

So...no ‘tears’ just irritation. All I’ve said about travel is that Brexit has made it harder and slower for UK travellers visiting Europe and that is a fact though, as Sith rightly pointed out earlier, it probably doesn’t begin to compare with the inconvenience experienced by our professional drivers.

[Trickytreesreds]

As for your ‘30 seconds extra at a border check’. I’ve no idea how accurate that is and imagine it varies somewhat, but let’s agree with your average estimate. That’s 30 seconds x about 180 on an average Ryanair flight or 30 seconds x approaching 2500 on the ferry I used to go to and from Santander in September/October.

So...no ‘tears’ just irritation. All I’ve said about travel is that Brexit has made it harder and slower for UK travellers visiting Europe and that is a fact though, as Sith rightly pointed out earlier, it probably doesn’t begin to compare with the inconvenience experienced by our professional drivers.

I'm no accountant mucker, but that analogy only works if everyone went through the same gate.
It also means every passenger would have to be British citizens as well.
So no, it is a miniscule irritation in the grand scheme of things.

But if you want to judge it as such, look towards your beloved EU my friend. They are the ones who want things to be awkward, when there is no need for any of it.
Look no futher than shell fish.

The sulkometer is still spinning.

[ramAnag]

I'm no accountant mucker, but that analogy only works if everyone went through the same gate.
It also means every passenger would have to be British citizens as well.
So no, it is a miniscule irritation in the grand scheme of things.

But if you want to judge it as such, look towards your beloved EU my friend. They are the ones who want things to be awkward, when there is no need for any of it.
Look no futher than shell fish.

The sulkometer is still spinning.

Firstly it’s not an analogy and yes, of course the number of gates that are open impacts upon the size of the queues as does the number of planes arriving at a similar time etc however these are factors that we cannot include without becoming entirely anecdotal.
For instance, the last time I travelled to Germany their were three gates open for our particular flight...one, with a very short queue for EU citizens and two with very long ones for UK citizens. The last time I travelled to and from Santander by ferry we were well placed on our return and there was no hold up as a result. On the way out however we were badly placed with seemingly the majority of the 600 cars on board in front of us leading to it taking ages to get off the ship and through the port with all occupant’s passports having to be stamped.
This wasn’t how it was before Brexit and while I accept it’s not the most important issue, the incontrovertible fact - and my only point - remains that Brexit has made European travel for UK citizens harder and slower than was previously the case.
Now...please don’t make me repeat my point again. You’ve been asked for some advantages...how about you provide one?

[SithHappens]

To be fair it would have looked crap on the side of a bus 'passport control will only be 30 seconds longer'

[Trickytreesreds]

To be fair it would have looked crap on the side of a bus 'passport control will only be 30 seconds longer'

OOOOOOOOOOOOH, the bus man.

Did you believe the WW3/50% house price crash/ 2 million extra unemployed/ emergency tax/can't fly into Europe stories as well?
It's a good job they were too long to paint on a bus innit?

[Trickytreesreds]

Firstly it’s not an analogy and yes, of course the number of gates that are open impacts upon the size of the queues as does the number of planes arriving at a similar time etc however these are factors that we cannot include without becoming entirely anecdotal.
For instance, the last time I travelled to Germany their were three gates open for our particular flight...one, with a very short queue for EU citizens and two with very long ones for UK citizens. The last time I travelled to and from Santander by ferry we were well placed on our return and there was no hold up as a result. On the way out however we were badly placed with seemingly the majority of the 600 cars on board in front of us leading to it taking ages to get off the ship and through the port with all occupant’s passports having to be stamped.
This wasn’t how it was before Brexit and while I accept it’s not the most important issue, the incontrovertible fact - and my only point - remains that Brexit has made European travel for UK citizens harder and slower than was previously the case.
Now...please don’t make me repeat my point again. You’ve been asked for some advantages...how about you provide one?

RA , please just sit back and think or re read everything again.
Perhaps have a day off?
I have told you many times of the advantages that can/should be gained, but the reluctance of the government and opposition to implement them are laughable.

Failed miserably to see through anything.
But that will be their downfall. Both parties will lose voters, especially the Tories.

The one thing that won't happen, which pleases me no end, is the drive for ever closer union and the dream of a USE is avoided.
The bitter taste that leaves in certain EU mouths is a dish best served cold.

[ramAnag]

RA , please just sit back and think or re read everything again.
Perhaps have a day off?
I have told you many times of the advantages that can/should be gained, but the reluctance of the government and opposition to implement them are laughable.

Failed miserably to see through anything.
But that will be their downfall. Both parties will lose voters, especially the Tories.

The one thing that won't happen, which pleases me no end, is the drive for ever closer union and the dream of a USE is avoided.
The bitter taste that leaves in certain EU mouths is a dish best served cold.

Okay...the avoidance of your ‘USE’ or ‘ever closer union’ may or may not be a good thing and I take your point on that one.
Personally, as things have emerged re Putin over the last nine months, I’m increasingly in favour of ‘ever closer union’ but perhaps that’s just me.

As regards absolutely everything else...I’ve yet to hear of a single advantage brought about via Brexit from you or anyone else.
All the evidence, from those infinitely more expert than you or I, suggests the opposite as many of us have said all along.

Either way this is exactly the sort of futile exchange that I vowed to stop getting involved in a few weeks ago. I avoided Brexit on here for the best part of two months, until you brought it up again a couple of days ago, so maybe the ‘break’ you spoke of on this issue is one of your better suggestions.

Maybe all those advantages the Brexiteers promised will have become apparent by mid February. Perhaps the shortages in the workforce and the Irish issues, to name just two serious issues directly related to Brexit, will have been sorted by then. We’ll see.

[MadAmster]

Here's an advantage... it caused me to seek Dutch nationality and I was successful in being granted it.

[Trickytreesreds]

Okay...the avoidance of your ‘USE’ or ‘ever closer union’ may or may not be a good thing and I take your point on that one.
Personally, as things have emerged re Putin over the last nine months, I’m increasingly in favour of ‘ever closer union’ but perhaps that’s just me.

As regards absolutely everything else...I’ve yet to hear of a single advantage brought about via Brexit from you or anyone else.
All the evidence, from those infinitely more expert than you or I, suggests the opposite as many of us have said all along.

Either way this is exactly the sort of futile exchange that I vowed to stop getting involved in a few weeks ago. I avoided Brexit on here for the best part of two months, until you brought it up again a couple of days ago, so maybe the ‘break’ you spoke of on this issue is one of your better suggestions.

Maybe all those advantages the Brexiteers promised will have become apparent by mid February. Perhaps the shortages in the workforce and the Irish issues, to name just two serious issues directly related to Brexit, will have been sorted by then. We’ll see.

I brought it up Sir, because I said weeks ago, I was going back to my fav German place.
The comments had been made of experiances leaving / returning from the continent. I said I would reserve judgment until I had gone through it.
Now I have and it was business as usual. I lost 30 seconds of my life, but I'll live with it.

I told you where I lay the blame. Tory failure to implement the opportunities laid bare, by our departure.
Political infighting, scared to upset certain parties, selfish attitudes have seen little done to push it along.
As a result, you will get your wish of a Labour government, as the red wall voters won't turn back to Labour, but will vote for the Reform party etc. The vote will split. The way things are going, you could even see Reform as the opposition party inside 2 years.

On the EU, we will see how they react on the 2 trillion borrowed for the COVID recovery plan, when the richer nations start having to pay that off.
Luckily, we WON'T!!

[MadAmster]

So where did the billions come from for furlough, the vaccine, Mone's PPE scandal, the other PPE scandals, the phone app scandal, the test and trace scandal etc..... ??

If you think it smells funny, follow the Mon-e

[swaledale]

I brought it up Sir, because I said weeks ago, I was going back to my fav German place.
The comments had been made of experiances leaving / returning from the continent. I said I would reserve judgment until I had gone through it.
Now I have and it was business as usual. I lost 30 seconds of my life, but I'll live with it.

I told you where I lay the blame. Tory failure to implement the opportunities laid bare, by our departure.
Political infighting, scared to upset certain parties, selfish attitudes have seen little done to push it along.
As a result, you will get your wish of a Labour government, as the red wall voters won't turn back to Labour, but will vote for the Reform party etc. The vote will split. The way things are going, you could even see Reform as the opposition party inside 2 years.

On the EU, we will see how they react on the 2 trillion borrowed for the COVID recovery plan, when the richer nations start having to pay that off.
Luckily, we WON'T!!

Reform could be the opposition party within 2 years? Jeez thats deluded even for you!!

[Trickytreesreds]

Reform could be the opposition party within 2 years? Jeez thats deluded even for you!!

What the way the Tories are losing members and MP's?
Not as deluded as might think.

There is now a hard core out there, that don't want to vote for the two same old things parties.
It's time for proportional representation and if it takes tactical voting, so be it.

[swaledale]

Totally deluded, but I guess you live in your bubble and think that there are many who are of the same view.

There are indeed a hard core of people for whom the Tory party has failed to deliver what could not be delivered, but they are much less than you seem to think and except in a few seats not electorally significant!

I am very hopeful that many head case Brexit voters who are unable to understand what a **** show it is and will continue to be, will vote for the bunch of nutters in Reform, that will merely ensure the Tories have a melt down and hopefully put them out of power for at least a decade.

AS for tactical voting, mm I very much doubt the voters your talking about are capable of such nuanced voting, the very fact they believed the lies about what Brexit could deliver, suggests as with you that the ability to comprehend even quite simple facts is a little difficult for them.