OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[swaledale]

Sorry but you did and that was the whole basis of my reply

You said:
‘ as Hitler took power and gradually implemented his aims ‘

Yes I did your correct. However, you have taken it right out of context, as I absolutely did not compare them to what the Tory party policies are, I mentioned Hitler and the "Good Germans" in respect of people enabling these aims to be achieved by the people doing nothing but adopting the attitude of "sucking it up" and getting on with things.

[swaledale]

….and that, in a nutshell, is why Brexit happened and why the US had four years of Trump. Those who shout loudest and longest dont always prevail, your argument is thus flawed but yes we’ll just have to differ on this

Edit on a wider point my understanding is that a) liberal voices in general are louder than conservative ones, certainly in U.K, and b) the population gets more conservative as if ages. I’ve seen reports on this but can’t find any ti provide provenance to my post

Define Liberal? It means many things to many people and has quite different meanings at opposite ends of the political spectrum.

If by Liberal you mean left leaning, then that's certainly not true - given that the majority of the media is owned by right wing millionaires and relentlessly pushes a right wing agenda.

Even the BBC is and always has been (there has never been a Labour Chair) centre right at best and actively Tory at worst - most of its senior management has very close Tory connections.

Indeed if one is to look closer, there is evidence that in London and other urban areas, there is a decidedly left leaning view, but elsewhere in the UK it is the conservative view that holds sway, especially in county towns and rural areas.

It is certainly true that as people get older their views become more conservative, hence why the Tory party panders to older people. An example is the ID system for voting at elections there are obvious inconsistencies in the ID that's valid for younger and older voters and indeed many more acceptable forms of ID for older persons. As in Senior railcard OK, Student railcard not OK!

[swaledale]

I don't believe either Southern or Angry's disappearance from the forum have anything to do with being unable to defend Brexit! Neither individual ever backed down from an opinion and they certainly wouldn't leave the forum over such an issue! That's frankly preposterous.

Also please don't put words in my mouth. Brexit COVID and Putin have unquestionably had short term impacts on our current economic malaise. How short term remains to be seen. But I have said all along that Brexit is, in my view, a long game. There were always going to be short term disadvantages, and this we have seen. If a longer term benefit emerges remains an unknown. I'm not convinced, but most thinking Brexiteers - and I know a few - remain confident that it will come good, economically, in time .

Meanwhile the USE spectre has been eased into history.

So has my mind been changed in the last 3 years. No, it is what it is. I was a fence sitter who eventually fell off the fence onto the losing side. I got back up, dusted myself off and endeavour to make the best of the hand we've been dealt.

On the other hand, the Duprass twins were always on the losing side and continue to whine on. Have any of us, regardless of attitude, done anything to change anyone else's minds in this microcosm of opinion makers? I doubt it, either here or in the real world.

You may call it shoulder shrugging, I may call it pragmatism. The reality is that Brexit has had no material impact on my lifestyle, standard of living or day to day activities. Hence I see no point in angst ridden reactions to the odd minor inconvenience.

So in summary - 9000 posts have not changed my thoughts an iota. No more so than conspiracy theorists influenced my thoughts on COVID vaccines. Other people may have changed their views, maybe even because of your rhetoric and argument, rA, but they were probably fence sitters that leant towards the winning side in 2016

"The reality is that Brexit has no material impact on my lifestyle" - ah the "Good German" syndrome. Except of course that is more than likely not the case. I accept you may have not noticed them or indeed you may have adjusted to the issues without noticing them.

That of course is how things deteriorate, people accept that, there no fruit and vegetables in the shops, it sometimes takes longer to travel abroad, its more expensive to travel, energy is more expensive than elsewhere, you cant access a dentist or a Dr, or you or a relative doesn't get treatment in a hospital soon enough. There are many incremental ways in which Brexit impacts upon people, for others, framers, businesses that used to export to the EU, health staff who cope with staff shortages etc etc. of course the impact is more dramatic, but as the "Good Germans" observed, yes we would prefer some things not to be happening, but they are happening to other people and not impacting upon my lifestyle so I'm not bothered!

Of course what's been written on this Forum doesn't change anything, it might cause some people to think and it might show that some peoples level of thinking is somewhat introspective and self absorbed. But what it has done is entertained those of us that knew brexit was going to be a **** show and its always nice to be proven right!

[swaledale]

Do the Tories understand irony?

Sunak praising his new agreement with the EU on NI, because NI will be the only place in the world that is both outside and inside the single market which will give it a unique economic opportunity!!

I mean who knew that having access to the single market was economically advantageous to the UK???

[Trickytreesreds]

Yay, I'm the only one.

Don't think that's true, but lets go with it.

Why did I vote for Brexit?
I didn't like the way things were going with ever closer Union. The EU was slowly sucking everyone in, but tripped up with timing.
The commission was becoming the ruling force in Europe. Never mind us, there are plenty of countries in the EU kicking back about the demands placed on them.
EU law/ Regulations/ Borders etc. The only things left to go for us(and would have happened) was currency and Schengen.
The "lies" as you guys say, swing both ways. I aint going over old ground, its pointless.

Did I expect it to get worse?
Of course I did, You do not undo nearly 50 years of EU regs/laws/ systems over night.

Did I think it would be this hard?
No I didn't. But I didn't factor in a Tory government, having no spine and dargging its heels over every aspect.
I didn't expect opposition parties to do their best to undermine everything, despite promising to uphold the result of the vote.

Do I regret it?
Nope, I still feel its the right thing to do, as the loudest I hear maoning about Brexit are those living comfortable lives and not one thought of the poor low end worker/social status person. They are the ones under the boot of EU membership.
They are the ones shafted with wages/ housing/ services etc.

What next?
Firstly, it gave the EU a reality check. They suddenly realised, if you push too hard, something snaps.
Lets be honest here, had they actually listened to Cameron and given him some carrots. It probably would have worked. Instead they smacked his arse, sent him back and got him to sell it to the rest of us, as a wonderful offer.
Like a prat, he did. Like them, he didn't think he'd lose.
So if anything, the EU may actually have to stop being so arrogant and listen. (SOMETHING THAT NEVER HAPPENED WHEN WE WAS A MEMBER)

Will we succeed?
I don't know. I actually don't believe the political will is there, as its a conflict of interests with many of them
Much as I hated the woman, Thatcher was the last one to stand up to them.
Major/.Blair/.Brown/Cameron were all on the gravy train and have made a **** load of money out of it.

So, it all depends now on who people vote for.
Torys are done, Labour has yet to convince anyone, Libs? Don't make me laugh.

That's why I still support proportional representation. Every walk of life needs its voice heard and not one parties/Individuals desires in parliament.

The opportunity is there, but will someone grab it?
I'll tell you this much. If anyone thinks rejoining by stealth will make everything all right, had better think again.
17.5 M voters is a lot of clout on ballot day.

[Andy_Faber]

Define Liberal? It means many things to many people and has quite different meanings at opposite ends of the political spectrum.

If by Liberal you mean left leaning, then that's certainly not true - given that the majority of the media is owned by right wing millionaires and relentlessly pushes a right wing agenda.

Even the BBC is and always has been (there has never been a Labour Chair) centre right at best and actively Tory at worst - most of its senior management has very close Tory connections.

Indeed if one is to look closer, there is evidence that in London and other urban areas, there is a decidedly left leaning view, but elsewhere in the UK it is the conservative view that holds sway, especially in county towns and rural areas.

It is certainly true that as people get older their views become more conservative, hence why the Tory party panders to older people. An example is the ID system for voting at elections there are obvious inconsistencies in the ID that's valid for younger and older voters and indeed many more acceptable forms of ID for older persons. As in Senior railcard OK, Student railcard not OK!

I deliberately used liberal rather than left leaning because the latter has party political connotations and I wasn’t making a party political point in fact I rarely do.

Below senior level my view is that BBC is massively liberal, I also see it as anti-Tory BUT it’s been a long time since they took power and BBC’s slant might in fact be ‘anti the party in power’ - we may well see if that’s the case in a few years. I thought it was fairly neutral on Brexit and in some cases very informative but let down by some who showed their true colours too much (kuenssberg, maitlis for instance)

[Andy_Faber]

Yes I did you’re correct. However, you have taken it right out of context, as I absolutely did not compare them to what the Tory party policies are, I mentioned Hitler and the "Good Germans" in respect of people enabling these aims to be achieved by the people doing nothing but adopting the attitude of "sucking it up" and getting on with things.

I will agree in so far as there’s those ‘on the gravy train /too fat and happy’ and there’s ‘too confused / disenfranchised to be bothered’ and no angry militancy in the middle, or at least not enough to have an impact. Just an observation

[swaledale]

I deliberately used liberal rather than left leaning because the latter has party political connotations and I wasn’t making a party political point in fact I rarely do.

Below senior level my view is that BBC is massively liberal, I also see it as anti-Tory BUT it’s been a long time since they took power and BBC’s slant might in fact be ‘anti the party in power’ - we may well see if that’s the case in a few years. I thought it was fairly neutral on Brexit and in some cases very informative but let down by some who showed their true colours too much (kuenssberg, maitlis for instance)

Ah but my point is that those who are right wing, are also called liberal or perhaps more accurately libertarians, who believe in freedom of the individual, less rules etc etc. Yet seem to want to impose certain rules on others.

Your perspective on the BBC is interesting, very different to mine and indeed many others who have always seen it as a right of centre organisation, often behind the curve on liberal matters historically. It ties itself in knots over being "impartial" such that and this is merely an analogy, if someone says its raining, the tendency is to find someone who will say it isn't rather than look out the window and find the facts.

Its Brexit coverage was massively let down by featuring Farage too frequently and many other similar people who in my view had nothing of substance to say, but were merely the "balancing act". It failed miserably to actually cut through the nonsense and distil the facts on Brexit, which a serious news organisation ought to be able to do. It wasn't supposed to be neutral, it should ahve reported news, but ignored the obvious lies and inaccuracies.

Keunssberg is so obviously Tory that it makes me wince, Maitlis, not so sure she is actually left, just too good a journalist to let clear inaccuracies go by in the name of impartiality. When she reported that Cummins had broken lockdown rules (which pissed off the Tory party) she was reporting facts not being biased. If a media organisation cannot report facts that are offensive to the government of the day then it may as well become a state mouthpiece.

It is not only senior positions either, Andrew Neil, Fiona Bruce, Craig Oliver, Guto Hari, James Landale, Nick Robinson all connected or have worked for the Tories or known to be right of centre. Yes there are those known to have connections with labour or be left leaning, but taken with the senior management and the view that the BBC has a left leaning bias can be shown to be false.

[swaledale]

I will agree in so far as there’s those ‘on the gravy train /too fat and happy’ and there’s ‘too confused / disenfranchised to be bothered’ and no angry militancy in the middle, or at least not enough to have an impact. Just an observation

Ah but the disenfranchised or confused are not necessarily enablers. its those who perceive that what is happening has now significant impact on their lives who I class as the "Good Germans", they not only enable more extreme policies on say protests, Police powers, immigration, the run down of the NHS and voting ID (to name a few examples) but in some cases actively participate thinking it wont affect them!

[swaledale]

Yay, I'm the only one.

Don't think that's true, but lets go with it.

Why did I vote for Brexit?
I didn't like the way things were going with ever closer Union. The EU was slowly sucking everyone in, but tripped up with timing.
The commission was becoming the ruling force in Europe. Never mind us, there are plenty of countries in the EU kicking back about the demands placed on them.
EU law/ Regulations/ Borders etc. The only things left to go for us(and would have happened) was currency and Schengen.
The "lies" as you guys say, swing both ways. I aint going over old ground, its pointless.

Did I expect it to get worse?
Of course I did, You do not undo nearly 50 years of EU regs/laws/ systems over night.

Did I think it would be this hard?
No I didn't. But I didn't factor in a Tory government, having no spine and dargging its heels over every aspect.
I didn't expect opposition parties to do their best to undermine everything, despite promising to uphold the result of the vote.

Do I regret it?
Nope, I still feel its the right thing to do, as the loudest I hear maoning about Brexit are those living comfortable lives and not one thought of the poor low end worker/social status person. They are the ones under the boot of EU membership.
They are the ones shafted with wages/ housing/ services etc.

What next?
Firstly, it gave the EU a reality check. They suddenly realised, if you push too hard, something snaps.
Lets be honest here, had they actually listened to Cameron and given him some carrots. It probably would have worked. Instead they smacked his arse, sent him back and got him to sell it to the rest of us, as a wonderful offer.
Like a prat, he did. Like them, he didn't think he'd lose.
So if anything, the EU may actually have to stop being so arrogant and listen. (SOMETHING THAT NEVER HAPPENED WHEN WE WAS A MEMBER)

Will we succeed?
I don't know. I actually don't believe the political will is there, as its a conflict of interests with many of them
Much as I hated the woman, Thatcher was the last one to stand up to them.
Major/.Blair/.Brown/Cameron were all on the gravy train and have made a **** load of money out of it.

So, it all depends now on who people vote for.
Torys are done, Labour has yet to convince anyone, Libs? Don't make me laugh.

That's why I still support proportional representation. Every walk of life needs its voice heard and not one parties/Individuals desires in parliament.

The opportunity is there, but will someone grab it?
I'll tell you this much. If anyone thinks rejoining by stealth will make everything all right, had better think again.
17.5 M voters is a lot of clout on ballot day.

A few points.

The Uk had a great deal of clout, we didn't stay out of the Euro, schengen ect. by the goodwill of the EU.

There aren't 17.5 million voters who believe Brexit was a good move. and in any case what will they do? Vote for a right wing party that holds most of them in contempt?

Thatcher for all her faults (and they were many) recognised that the Eu was good for the UK and you contradict yourself by saying the EU never listened to the UK, then admitted they listened to Thatcher, oh and allowed us a veto and not to join the Euro and etc. etc.

Anyone who thinks that those who are being shafted on wages/housing/services because of the EU are simply ignorant of the facts! The UK Tory government had a conscious policy of austerity, which mean't there has been no investment to cope with the growth in population.

If the growth had been down to the birth rate of residents, we would still be in the same situation. What would the response be then? A one child policy for people, involuntary euthanasia?

Lets nail the massive lie that immigration is the reason one can't get housing, Dr's dentists schools etc. Its 13 years of zero investment.

Now one can argue about how sustainable population growth is, that's fine but to fully tackle that there would have to be a complete change in economic approach and the consumer society which most of those complaining about there being "too many" people would not accept.

The fact is that birth rates are going down globally and this is becoming an issue, as a population ages, japan has experienced this for decades, economic stagnation over time that will get worse for all countries and immigration won't be the panacea.

Brexit isn't going to improve the lot of the disadvantaged, Blair did more for those with his focus on education - again not perfect but it was a whole lot better than we have now. Its going and indeed already has increased it, reduced economic activity reduced tax revenue means less services and that high wage economy promised? Not going to happen.

I doubt we will join the EU politically for decades, but a Norway style arrangement will be the way forward. Indeed based on the narrow majority in favour of Brexit, that is what should ahve been agreed a long time ago, out of the politics and remain the economic ties.

In any case, rejoining the single market and probably the customs union is where will get to in a very short time, sure some of those unenlightened will froth about it, but they will be outweighed by those who have seen what a piss poor thing Brexit was and welcome the economic benefits it will bring.

What is really useful, is that we will have a part of the UK in Northern Ireland, that will be a living breathing example of the advantages, indeed it already is!!

One last question, I keep hearing about all these "EU" regulations and laws, exactly which ones do you think are the issue here? Indeed what is the issue?

[Trickytreesreds]

Its Brexit coverage was massively let down by featuring Farage too frequently and many other similar people who in my view had nothing of substance to say, but were merely the "balancing act"

Sorry, but that is just tosh.
If ever he was on, it was because he was always outnumbered on any debate panel. But he never let that faze him and fought the corner.
You or many others may not have wanted him on it, but the BBC knew it would get contentious, as the 3 or 4 against him would be slinging mud.

Don't believe that? Find any question time you like with him on it.

[Andy_Faber]

Ah but my point is that those who are right wing, are also called liberal or perhaps more accurately libertarians, who believe in freedom of the individual, less rules etc etc. Yet seem to want to impose certain rules on others.

Your perspective on the BBC is interesting, very different to mine and indeed many others who have always seen it as a right of centre organisation, often behind the curve on liberal matters historically. It ties itself in knots over being "impartial" such that and this is merely an analogy, if someone says its raining, the tendency is to find someone who will say it isn't rather than look out the window and find the facts.

Its Brexit coverage was massively let down by featuring Farage too frequently and many other similar people who in my view had nothing of substance to say, but were merely the "balancing act". It failed miserably to actually cut through the nonsense and distil the facts on Brexit, which a serious news organisation ought to be able to do. It wasn't supposed to be neutral, it should ahve reported news, but ignored the obvious lies and inaccuracies.

Keunssberg is so obviously Tory that it makes me wince, Maitlis, not so sure she is actually left, just too good a journalist to let clear inaccuracies go by in the name of impartiality. When she reported that Cummins had broken lockdown rules (which pissed off the Tory party) she was reporting facts not being biased. If a media organisation cannot report facts that are offensive to the government of the day then it may as well become a state mouthpiece.

It is not only senior positions either, Andrew Neil, Fiona Bruce, Craig Oliver, Guto Hari, James Landale, Nick Robinson all connected or have worked for the Tories or known to be right of centre. Yes there are those known to have connections with labour or be left leaning, but taken with the senior management and the view that the BBC has a left leaning bias can be shown to be false.

Most of my Brexit was via radio which imo was totally different and more considered than TV which was a bit of a circus

[swaledale]

Most of my Brexit was via radio which imo was totally different and more considered than TV which was a bit of a circus

I'd agree with that. Hardly watch any news oercurrent affairs programmes on the beeb, sometimes watch Channel 4.

[swaledale]

Its Brexit coverage was massively let down by featuring Farage too frequently and many other similar people who in my view had nothing of substance to say, but were merely the "balancing act"

Sorry, but that is just tosh.
If ever he was on, it was because he was always outnumbered on any debate panel. But he never let that faze him and fought the corner.
You or many others may not have wanted him on it, but the BBC knew it would get contentious, as the 3 or 4 against him would be slinging mud.

Don't believe that? Find any question time you like with him on it.

Whats tosh? The fact that he was the balancing act? I mean yes the BBC knew he would be contentious, but giving air time to a lying snake oil salesmen isn't news.

By the way I'm still waiting for your list of rules and regulations that you find so onerous.

[SithHappens]

Can i buy that a few more 'enlightened' 'brexiteers' knew it was going to take 5,10,15 years for things to get on an even footing before it started to improve? Yes, Can I buy that those in the age group that had the biggest share of leave votes (The over 75's) voted for something that they knew they wouldn't start to see the benefit of until they were probably dead then..No, i cant buy that.

They could of course argue they were doing it for todays young people, but as todays young people voted in favour of remaining then surely let them choose for themselves?

We can argue that it would have been better had it not been the tories handling it, but we all knew who was in power and likely to be so for the bulk of the brexit negotiations so that as a defence for it not going aswell as it could have is a irrelevant.

Anyway the new agreement in NI should it get through will make things better for the haulage business where my wife is a director, by better i mean it will be better than its been since brexit, but still not as good as it was before, but hey they apparently aren't allowed to complain because they have managed to keep their heads above water and aren't living in poverty.

Funny how Rishi is walking around like a dog with two ..... and has bizarrely claimed 'his post-Brexit deal meant Northern Ireland was the world’s “most exciting economic zone” with access to both EU and UK markets'. Ermmmm......Great idea that who would have thought of it???

As Swale says we are told about the rules and regulations aspect of not being in the EU but there seems to be a lack of clarity around what those rules and regulations are that we are much better off without.

We can also argue about lies on both sides and as TTS says its been done to death but if i spot an idiot about to try and cross the M1 in rush hour wearing a blindfold and go and tell him not to do it because he will probably not make it to the other side and will probably get killed, but somehow miraculously he makes it to the other side with nothing more than a few bumps and bruises, does that make me a liar?