Election Year or Fear!

[Andy_Faber]

still don't think the west didn't do its part in lighting the touch paper of Ukraine? Been years in the making, just waiting for a Putin to come along

https://fb.watch/y54E4eqZqN/

Not been discussed as much as I?d expected here but Zelensky showed a lot of bravery standing up to those bullies in what IMO was clearly a setup, I also think he?s shown other statesmen that they don?t need to succumb to every American whim. I was sort of hoping Zelensky was going to pop out with ?Look Don. Just STFU for a minute?
Good to see Starmer (misnamed as Lord Starmer on newsfeeds where I currently am) at last taking the lead in subsequent discussions

[ramAnag]

Actually similar to mine in the area of elective/inpatient surgery but it?s not all about numbers, my consultant (an Indian, sorry no idea of generation) has such bad English that I?ve had to have my condition explained to me more than once by one of his colleagues (also Indian) with perfect English. I?d have happily expanded on my friend (ironically also an immigrant and one I?ve mentioned before)?s frustrations, but don?t see any point when we have someone shouting ?you?re a racist!? at any sign of deviation from his party line

Hmmm…so you’d agree with GP’s seemingly sensible suggestion that, in his recent experience, about 10% of patients are likely to be immigrants, but support your friend’s description of the NHS as a service for immigrants? How can that make sense?

As regards frustrations with the quality of spoken English. Surely it is a prerequisite of any doctor to be able to communicate effectively. If a doctor’s English is genuinely so bad that they can’t be understood then I for one can’t understand how anyone would call you racist for politely pointing that out and seeking clarification.

[Geoff Parkstone]

A prerequisite of being a doctor is being able to communicate?? Have you not heard the adage of doctors handwriting?

To balance things a bit, I also spent quite a bit of time in A&E / outpatients where the he customer balance seemed much more (30% maybe) with English not as first language

[ramAnag]

A prerequisite of being a doctor is being able to communicate?? Have you not heard the adage of doctors handwriting?

To balance things a bit, I also spent quite a bit of time in A&E / outpatients where the he customer balance seemed much more (30% maybe) with English not as first language

Yes indeed, but quality of handwriting has largely been surpassed in a system where most written instructions are now machine printed, whereas being able to make oneself understood verbally remains, imo, crucial for medical staff.

Whether it’s 10% or 30%, and I appreciate this will vary depending on locality, that is still a very long way from what was originally being suggested two or three evenings ago.

[Andy_Faber]

A prerequisite of being a doctor is being able to communicate?? Have you not heard the adage of doctors handwriting?

To balance things a bit, I also spent quite a bit of time in A&E / outpatients where the he customer balance seemed much more (30% maybe) with English not as first language

Yes it was A and E. I?ve mentioned my friends frustrations before, an Irish nurse who previously worked in Spain where she?d settled, came to UK (so an immigrant herself in both countries as it happens) but has now returned to Spain in try he same role

Point taken re handwriting

[Trickytreesreds]

Not been discussed as much as I?d expected here but Zelensky showed a lot of bravery standing up to those bullies in what IMO was clearly a setup, I also think he?s shown other statesmen that they don?t need to succumb to every American whim. I was sort of hoping Zelensky was going to pop out with ?Look Don. Just STFU for a minute?
Good to see Starmer (misnamed as Lord Starmer on newsfeeds where I currently am) at last taking the lead in subsequent discussions

My point Andy, was to those who like quoting history in here.
Take WW2. Was Hitler to blame? 75% yes.

After WW1 the Versailles treaty created the very conditions that lay the conditions for the fascists to rise.
The majority of that harshness, came from France. They sowed the very seeds that would lead to Frances re invasion 25 years later.

As the video showed, the west especially the US, promised Gorbachev not one inch eastward after the dismantling of the iron curtain.
Clinton certainly got his hands dirty on that one.
The the EU decided to stick its nose in.

Putin is a tyrant, we can all agree on that. But don't tell me this was all his doing, it wasn't.
Though RA seems to think I'm a Putin supporter for pointing historical facts out.

[ramAnag]

My point Andy, was to those who like quoting history in here.
Take WW2. Was Hitler to blame? 75% yes.

After WW1 the Versailles treaty created the very conditions that lay the conditions for the fascists to rise.
The majority of that harshness, came from France. They sowed the very seeds that would lead to Frances re invasion 25 years later.

As the video showed, the west especially the US, promised Gorbachev not one inch eastward after the dismantling of the iron curtain.
Clinton certainly got his hands dirty on that one.
The the EU decided to stick its nose in.

Putin is a tyrant, we can all agree on that. But don't tell me this was all his doing, it wasn't.
Though RA seems to think I'm a Putin supporter for pointing historical facts out.

Tricky, you can try and drag me into your disagreement with AF if you like, but when you resurrect our own disagreement from about ten days ago at least get the facts correct. I haven’t referred to you as a Putin supporter. I said you seemed to be trying to justify and excuse his actions. Another poster referred to you as a Putin apologist and I have to say that, each time you write, it does seem an increasingly well founded accusation.

[Trickytreesreds]

Tricky, you can try and drag me into your disagreement with AF if you like, but when you resurrect our own disagreement from about ten days ago at least get the facts correct. I haven?t referred to you as a Putin supporter. I said you seemed to be trying to justify and excuse his actions. Another poster referred to you as a Putin apologist and I have to say that, each time you write, it does seem an increasingly well founded accusation.

so thats exactly what you was and are doing then?

When you cross the road or over take, do you look left/ right, or check your mirrors?
Sounds like you don't.

are you seriously going to deny the wests actions didn't help shape the whole situation?

[Geoff Parkstone]

In that TTR is in effect mirroring the argument that the causes of WW2 were grounded in the settlement of WW1, he has a point. Russian "lebensraum" policy underpins the invasion, to liberate what it sees as it's people in Ukraine territory. This too is not unlike the sudetenland

The Russo-Ukrainian conflict is rooted in the dissolution of the Eastern bloc and Europe / USA were complicit in enabling that dissolution.

This doesn't justify the invasion but the parallels are interesting. Especially in the way Trump is reprising the Chamberlain role of appeasement of the aggressor. Let's hope Poland isn't the next tarfet

[ramAnag]

so thats exactly what you was and are doing then?

When you cross the road or over take, do you look left/ right, or check your mirrors?
Sounds like you don't.

are you seriously going to deny the wests actions didn't help shape the whole situation?

I’m not even involving myself in this particular debate. I just find it fascinating that you feel the repeated need to defend and excuse Trump, Putin and now apparently, albeit to a lesser degree, Hitler all while comparing Starmer to Stalin.

Interesting perspective, but needless to say, not one I have much time for.

[MadAmster]

Trump is a bully. We can all agree with that, I believe.

Putin is a tyrant. We can all agree with that, I believe.

The history.

Georgia. They voted in a pro western government and said they wanted to join both the EU and NATO. EU was positive, I don't know about NATO. Russia invaded.

Ukraine. They voted in a pro western government and said they wanted to join both the EU and NATO. EU was positive, as was NATO although NATO did say, eventually. Russia invaded.

Russia annexed the Crimea in 2014. Illegally I may add. A couple of months later they recruited the Wagner Group to take the Eastern provinces of Ukraine. That way Putin wasn't actually invading Ukraine, it was the WG doing it with weapons Russia supplied. 2022, WG aren't getting very far so Putin goes in. 2025, it's still going on.

Did both Georgia and Ukraine have the right to want to join the EU. Hell, yes. Idem ditto NATO.

In the years following the Russian annexing of the Ukraine, there have been >20 cease fires agreed. All have been broken by... you guessed it, Russia.

Now, USA focus is shifting and is becoming Russia facing rather than Europe facing. Added into that there's also a bucketful of I'll stamp on anything and anyone who doesn't lie down and beg cos I'm a big kid and I always want to get my way. Why this 180 degree turnaround? Recently, 2 former KGB agents, Shvets and Mussayev, have both gone on record saying that the KGB recruited Trump in 1987. That needs investigating, thoroughly. If true, Trump going Russian is no surprise.

There's an article I read earlier which I can't now find in which the author pointed out, I think it was, 7 ways in which Trump and Vance gaslit Zelensky. I felt the author got it spot on.

[Andy_Faber]

Trump is a bully. We can all agree with that, I believe.

Putin is a tyrant. We can all agree with that, I believe.

The history.

Georgia. They voted in a pro western government and said they wanted to join both the EU and NATO. EU was positive, I don't know about NATO. Russia invaded.

Ukraine. They voted in a pro western government and said they wanted to join both the EU and NATO. EU was positive, as was NATO although NATO did say, eventually. Russia invaded.

Russia annexed the Crimea in 2014. Illegally I may add. A couple of months later they recruited the Wagner Group to take the Eastern provinces of Ukraine. That way Putin wasn't actually invading Ukraine, it was the WG doing it with weapons Russia supplied. 2022, WG aren't getting very far so Putin goes in. 2025, it's still going on.

Did both Georgia and Ukraine have the right to want to join the EU. Hell, yes. Idem ditto NATO.

In the years following the Russian annexing of the Ukraine, there have been >20 cease fires agreed. All have been broken by... you guessed it, Russia.

Now, USA focus is shifting and is becoming Russia facing rather than Europe facing. Added into that there's also a bucketful of I'll stamp on anything and anyone who doesn't lie down and beg cos I'm a big kid and I always want to get my way. Why this 180 degree turnaround? Recently, 2 former KGB agents, Shvets and Mussayev, have both gone on record saying that the KGB recruited Trump in 1987. That needs investigating, thoroughly. If true, Trump going Russian is no surprise.

There's an article I read earlier which I can't now find in which the author pointed out, I think it was, 7 ways in which Trump and Vance gaslit Zelensky. I felt the author got it spot on.

I think your point that bullies should be met with equal force applies in the current predicament, but also my point that that doesn’t work when such equal force is not available. IMO NATO > Russia, NATO-USA<Russia

[Andy_Faber]

Hmmm…so you’d agree with GP’s seemingly sensible suggestion that, in his recent experience, about 10% of patients are likely to be immigrants, but support your friend’s description of the NHS as a service for immigrants? How can that make sense?

As regards frustrations with the quality of spoken English. Surely it is a prerequisite of any doctor to be able to communicate effectively. If a doctor’s English is genuinely so bad that they can’t be understood then I for one can’t understand how anyone would call you racist for politely pointing that out and seeking clarification.

As you appear to be asking a face value question, the face value response is it makes sense because it?s not about raw percentages, it?s the inertia in the system caused by language and cultural differences (on both the professional and patient sides) and an ?inclination? to play the system. My guess (based on much more flaky knowledge) is that language and culture impact on education as well, isn?t there a school in Derby where English is one of 27 languages spoken?

[ramAnag]

As you appear to be asking a face value question, the face value response is it makes sense because it?s not about raw percentages, it?s the inertia in the system caused by language and cultural differences (on both the professional and patient sides) and an ?inclination? to play the system. My guess (based on much more flaky knowledge) is that language and culture impact on education as well, isn?t there a school in Derby where English is one of 27 languages spoken?

My main objection, Andy, was to your support for the suggestion that an NHS worker you know was made to feel like ‘an outsider in a business where immigrants tend to immigrants’.
It isn’t logically possible to support that statement and agree with GP’s anecdotal 10% figure.
The internet is a powerful instrument and it is never helpful when seemingly reasonably intelligent folk give tacit approval to, and by implication contribute to, the spreading of such utter nonsense.

Of course there is an issue involving the impact of linguistic ability on certain services and yes, that includes education.
I’ve taught such young people, not least as a result of the war in the former Yugoslavia in the 90’s and it can be enormously difficult.
I dare say the same problem has emerged again with the influx of displaced Ukrainians, but whose fault is that?

[Geoff Parkstone]

As you appear to be asking a face value question, the face value response is it makes sense because it?s not about raw percentages, it?s the inertia in the system caused by language and cultural differences (on both the professional and patient sides) and an ?inclination? to play the system. My guess (based on much more flaky knowledge) is that language and culture impact on education as well, isn?t there a school in Derby where English is one of 27 languages spoken?

Oh God that means there would be at least 27 rA's in the school to cover all options.

But seriously it's time for someone to say **** this. English is the language of the country you choose to raise your kids in. So that's what they will be taught in. If you don't like it, you know what to do.

And while we are at it, abolish all faith schools (in the state school sector) of whatever provenance, which will also be bastions of teaching in non domestic languages as well as Catholic priests.

When Urdu becomes the master language and Islam the master faith (ie in about 20 years at present growth rates if the toolmakers son gets his way) this can be reviewed