Election Year or Fear!

[Geoff Parkstone]

Ive just come back from a nice breezy walk in the neighbouring countryside. Just popped in the oak beamed pub on the way back for a pint to warm myself up in front of the blazing log fire... god dammit there was a black labrador hogging the heat. Dont see many of those around these parts, seems Goldie the English Cream has been moved on.

[ramAnag]

Trying to see both sides, you actually missed a group out, Pride Parks matchday staff, almost all black, who appear to do a great job (even when some old tw@t asked for a Marathon on Saturday, oops). Not sure how many fans even notice them, I always say thanks to whoever?s at the bottom of our stairs as I leave (white lady on sat as it happens)

I’m not really sure how I’ve ‘missed a group out’, indeed, if anything I’d say you rather reinforce my point. The fans are largely white, the directors are probably exclusively white, the hospitality boxes will be populated largely by white people but those who clear up everyone’s mess at the end are, according to you, ‘almost all black’.

It’s a scenario repeated in numerous situations across this country and the world. There are myriad reasons and explanations, but how do you think that impacts on the self image of young black people today and doesn’t it need to change?

[MadAmster]

Things go in cycles. Swings, roundabouts and pendulums. For years, people of colour hardly ever saw a successful person who looked like them. One can understand that such a situation could convince them that are destined to miss out on fame and fortune. It strengthened white's feeling of superiority and and coloured's feeling of insecurity. That was wrong, IMO. There has been an increase in "public facing roles" for non-white's. The pendulum has swung the other way and is now out of balance the other way. It will swing back and hopefully get stuck in the middle at sensible levels. You can't, again IMO, have EVERYTHING at quotas equal to a group's % of the population. Some appear better at sports, others have a drive to be lawyers, doctors, accountants etc. Rock performers are mainly white. Soul performers mainly black. 60 years ago most UK R&B and Blues performers were white, that has reversed.

[Andy_Faber]

I?m not really sure how I?ve ?missed a group out?, indeed, if anything I?d say you rather reinforce my point. The fans are largely white, the directors are probably exclusively white, the hospitality boxes will be populated largely by white people but those who clear up the mess at the end are, according to you, ?almost all black?.

It?s a scenario repeated in numerous situations across this country and the world. There are myriad reasons and explanations but how do you think that impacts on the self image of young black people today and doesn?t it need to change?

We’re talking at cross purposes as usual

[Geoff Parkstone]

I’m not really sure how I’ve ‘missed a group out’, indeed, if anything I’d say you rather reinforce my point. The fans are largely white, the directors are probably exclusively white, the hospitality boxes will be populated largely by white people but those who clear up everyone’s mess at the end are, according to you, ‘almost all black’.

It’s a scenario repeated in numerous situations across this country and the world. There are myriad reasons and explanations, but how do you think that impacts on the self image of young black people today and doesn’t it need to change?

Thats right because black youth always look for positive role models in the stands - Fat Sid from Chad who ate all the pies - rather than at those on the pitch - Adams, Ozoh, Agyemang, Sanderson etc etc who proudly play for their clubs and countries.

Same with cricket and Asian youth - positive role models at county and England level plus influxes of overseas one day players into domestic one day cricket. On the subject of which I find it hard to believe that at the England v India test match you recently went to at Old Trafford there were few brown faces. Every time I've seen India play at International level their fans make up probably 25%-30% of the crowd, are noisy and visible and dont support England (their choice).

But the bottom line is that noone does or can make someone pay for or watch a sporting event. Its not something in any way comparable to the TV adverts issue (if indeed it is an issue - Im with you and Sith and never watch adverts) but in that acting role individuals are selected for a role and that selection process may or may not have ethnic bias, be that disproportionate or otherwise. If you had pointed to the fact that no black kids were being picked for England football team, or Asians for cricket team, it would be relevant. But they are, based on talent, and rightly so. But spectating or working behind the scenes at a ground - give it a rest.

[MadAmster]

We?’re talking at cross purposes as usual

The phrase is, usually, crossed purposes but, in this particular case, I fear you may well have got it right.

I am still unsure as to whether certain posters misunderstand certain others on purpose or whether it is genuinely misunderstanding.

There are times when I am sure they are merely agitating. I find it annoying but you all knew that anyway.

[ramAnag]

Thats right because black youth always look for positive role models in the stands - Fat Sid from Chad who ate all the pies - rather than at those on the pitch - Adams, Ozoh, Agyemang, Sanderson etc etc who proudly play for their clubs and countries.

Same with cricket and Asian youth - positive role models at county and England level plus influxes of overseas one day players into domestic one day cricket. On the subject of which I find it hard to believe that at the England v India test match you recently went to at Old Trafford there were few brown faces. Every time I've seen India play at International level their fans make up probably 25%-30% of the crowd, are noisy and visible and dont support England (their choice).

But the bottom line is that noone does or can make someone pay for or watch a sporting event. Its not something in any way comparable to the TV adverts issue (if indeed it is an issue - Im with you and Sith and never watch adverts) but in that acting role individuals are selected for a role and that selection process may or may not have ethnic bias, be that disproportionate or otherwise. If you had pointed to the fact that no black kids were being picked for England football team, or Asians for cricket team, it would be relevant. But they are, based on talent, and rightly so. But spectating or working behind the scenes at a ground - give it a rest.

It wasn’t me who introduced the ‘working behind the scenes at a ground’ aspect. It was AF.

Believe it or not, my experience at Old Trafford was that the vast majority of the Indian fans - about an estimated 10% of the whole crowd - were all grouped together in one part of the ground. In much the same way as those English fans who wish to drink to excess and sing tedious songs are encouraged to stay in Old Trafford’s ‘Party Stand’ (or the Hollies Stand at Edgbaston) so, I imagine, the Indian fans, who wish to drum incessantly throughout the match, were encouraged to gather together in a particular section.

Everything was amicable and that’s how it was. When the Aussies come for the Ashes, they also tend to gather together in their green and gold enclaves.

I’m honestly struggling to make much sense of the rest of your post.

[ramAnag]

The phrase is, usually, crossed purposes but, in this particular case, I fear you may well have got it right.

I am still unsure as to whether certain posters misunderstand certain others on purpose or whether it is genuinely misunderstanding.

There are times when I am sure they are merely agitating. I find it annoying but you all knew that anyway.

Me too, enormously! On this occasion though I don’t think AF is strategically misunderstanding and I, at least, am not ‘cross’.

[Andy_Faber]

Me too, enormously! On this occasion though I don?t think AF is strategically misunderstanding and I, at least, am not ?cross?.

Not me who?s misunderstanding rA, strategic or otherwise. I?ll go back to just discussing with Sith who?s OP it was

[ramAnag]

Not me who?s misunderstanding rA, strategic or otherwise. I?ll go back to just discussing with Sith who?s OP it was

Oh behave, Andy. I’ve just said you’re not strategically misunderstanding. There is absolutely nothing there to fall out about.

[Geoff Parkstone]

It wasn’t me who introduced the ‘working behind the scenes at a ground’ aspect. It was AF.

Believe it or not, my experience at Old Trafford was that the vast majority of the Indian fans - about an estimated 10% of the whole crowd - were all grouped together in one part of the ground. In much the same way as those English fans who wish to drink to excess and sing tedious songs are encouraged to stay in Old Trafford’s ‘Party Stand’ (or the Hollies Stand at Edgbaston) so, I imagine, the Indian fans, who wish to drum incessantly throughout the match, were encouraged to gather together in a particular section.

Everything was amicable and that’s how it was. When the Aussies come for the Ashes, they also tend to gather together in their green and gold enclaves.

I’m honestly struggling to make much sense of the rest of your post.

Usually the case when you are trying to extract yourself from a stupid post/opinion

As for cricket, its a bit different at Lords in my experience although the Oval does tend to kettle Aussies and indeed West Indian fans (or they did when the Oval was the epicentre of West Indian support when they had a strong team). However like you Ive never experienced any trouble at cricket matches between supporters, nor at Rugby (15 a side, never tried 13) whilst at footballl....

[ramAnag]

Usually the case when you are trying to extract yourself from a stupid post/opinion

Just rude, GP.
I simply don’t understand what you are trying to say about black youth in paragraph one of post 4625, and I wasn’t comparing TV adverts with attending sporting events.
I was making the point that, while Sarah Pochin appears desperate to express her discomfort at the number of black and Asian people in TV adverts she, and actually you, don’t seem to recognise the problem of black and Asian people being apparently reluctant to engage in the type of leisure/entertainment activities that the likes of you and I feel comfortable attending.
Unless we want a permanently divided society, and there are definitely some who do, we have to address such issues imo.

[Geoff Parkstone]

"you, don’t seem to recognise the problem of black and Asian people being apparently reluctant to engage in the type of leisure/entertainment activities that the likes of you and I feel comfortable attending."

Youre absolutley right I bloody well dont. What makes you so presumptuous as to know that those groups of people want to go to the same events as you or I do and what makes you so presumptuous as to know that they dont because they would feel uncomfortable to do so. Ive never heard anything so ****ing ridiculous in my life.

When you were 18 would you have wanted to go to an event that your grandad liked, I dont know, such as a Russ Conway concert or to see Max Bygraves do a comic turn. Of course you wouldnt. So why do you presume people dont attend the same things as you or I might want to "because they dont feel comfortable". Maybe, just maybe, they dont go because they dont want to go, because perhaps they dont enjoy it. Maybe because they have a limited budget and dont prioritise it, prefer to spend the money on something they enjoy.... So you are going to give them free tickets to go and sit bored staring at their phone just because you would have enjoyed it yourself if you were them????

My kids wouldnt want to go and see Pink Floyd play in concert (if still possible) any more than I'd want to go see Central C or Digga D. Yes I had to google them too! But you cant impose your values/enjoyment on people with different and cultural values, interests and ages just because YOU think YOU know whats best for them, and its "right on" / "woke". People are different, celebrate that difference, dont try to force them into your box of self righteousness.

[ramAnag]

"you, don?’t seem to recognise the problem of black and Asian people being apparently reluctant to engage in the type of leisure/entertainment activities that the likes of you and I feel comfortable attending."

Youre absolutley right I bloody well dont. What makes you so presumptuous as to know that those groups of people want to go to the same events as you or I do and what makes you so presumptuous as to know that they dont because they would feel uncomfortable to do so. Ive never heard anything so ****ing ridiculous in my life.

When you were 18 would you have wanted to go to an event that your grandad liked, I dont know, such as a Russ Conway concert or to see Max Bygraves do a comic turn. Of course you wouldnt. So why do you presume people dont attend the same things as you or I might want to "because they dont feel comfortable". Maybe, just maybe, they dont go because they dont want to go, because perhaps they dont enjoy it. Maybe because they have a limited budget and dont prioritise it, prefer to spend the money on something they enjoy.... So you are going to give them free tickets to go and sit bored staring at their phone just because you would have enjoyed it yourself if you were them????

My kids wouldnt want to go and see Pink Floyd play in concert (if still possible) any more than I'd want to go see Central C or Digga D. Yes I had to google them too! But you cant impose your values/enjoyment on people with different and cultural values, interests and ages just because YOU think YOU know whats best for them, and its "right on" / "woke". People are different, celebrate that difference, dont try to force them into your box of self righteousness.

Ooops. Seem to have hit a nerve there.

Anyway, nothing to do with me thinking I know what’s best for people or imposing my values on them and nothing to do with age either. That’s a completely different issue and just another example of you deflecting with a huge red herring.

Fact is that approximately 43% of Premiership footballers are black but only an estimated 13% of spectators are. Why is that do you think? Lack of interest? I think not.

Another fact is that, according to the Arts Council, 92% of British theatre leaders are white and there are concerns about the cultural disconnect which has led to both theatres and museums attracting predominantly white ‘audiences’.

Years ago, on one of many theatre trips which I organised for relatively deprived kids, I made a point of insisting that a notoriously difficult te enager could only come on the trip if he understood that he was sitting next to me at Buxton Opera House throughout a production of the Hobbit. People thought I was mad taking him, but he was actually as good as gold and thoroughly enjoyed the production, although I’ve never forgotten him saying at the interval, ‘brilliant innit sir…not for the likes of us though is it?’

Perhaps the proven reluctance or inability of black/Asian people to access such entertainment should be more of a concern then than how many black/Asian faces appear in TV advertising. It is to me. Apparently not to you, but self righteousness doesn’t come into it. It’s all about offering opportunity and equality.

[Andy_Faber]

Back on topic (sorry rA), general consensus, and ignoring comments on obviously partisan media, appears to be that she’s merely brought into mainstream media a fact-supported issue that is widely discussed on social media already. I’d estimate 95% of thousands of comments support her sentiment if not her delivery. My own opinion is she said it how she did deliberately to maximise the amount of fuss generated