Election Year or Fear!

[ramAnag]

must admit don't fully understand but with PR don't you need a majority share of the vote? i.e 50 % plus? That never happens

It’s bloomin’ complicated Sith and there are at least four different types of PR which we possibly need GP’s more forensic mindset to explain the minutia of. Swings and roundabouts time I think…like you I don’t understand it fully, but I can understand why the STV (Single Transferable Vote) version of PR is regarded as fairer by many.

Most people don’t even give politics as much thought as you or I and I have come across people who can’t even handle the ‘complexities’of FPTP so maybe that’s why we’ve never grasped the proverbial nettle and changed.

[Andy_Faber]

Who are these mysterious people who "won't" help themselves? I find funny that people think they are getting away with something, I mean if life was that brilliant on benefits, why aren't you doing it yourself? And no don't come back with because I have more pride and self respect!! Thats *******s, life on benefits is no sinecure.

I'll wait now for the anecdotal evidence of people on benefits who have the latest everything, drive new cars and holiday in the Caribbean!! Most of which is total horse****.

On the other hand I know quite a few "businessmen" whose declared income is far below mine but enjoy a lifestyle that is beyond what I could or would wish to fund.

I for one think paying some of the useless lummocks, the unemployable the social misfits a basic income solves more problems than it creates. Reduces crime costs to justice system, prison etc. and frankly having had the "pleasure" of employing some of them, saves a lot of hassle in the long run.

There will always be a section of society unfit for work and unable to raise their skill level to the work that is available, given that 100,000's of low skilled jobs have disappeared over the decades, what's the solution.

Mind you with AI taking over even skilled jobs, many who might have thought they were skilled and n secure jobs might be casting around for something to do!

In terms of facts its worth pointing out that 50% or thereabouts of welfare expenditure is on pensions and that tax fraud and avoidance costs the UK much more than benefit fraud and of course people on benefits spend their benefits into the local economy whereas tax fraud and avoidance tends to see the money leave the UK or not spent locally.

But of course one wouldn't get the same sense of smug self aggrandisement as is clearly enjoyed by "punching down" on the so called "skivers" rather than those cheating the economy or like P & O CEO being paid 6 figure sums and exploiting workers.

You don't usually react well to anecdotes that don't support your POV but I could offer a number of such that I know (as acquaintances, not 'know of'), who have set their stall out to 'work the system' and avoid honest graft. In fact I've helped one recently fill in a form requesting a rental allowance of some sort, happy to do so as she wasn't doing anything illegal - however, despite not working since 2014 (to my knowledge) she is going to Tunisia for two weeks in June. Not The Caribbean, but still a bit puzzling. And no its not a once in a lifetime thing, it was Turkey last year.

I do take your point about the genuinely useless, but if as you suggest you pay someone NOT to work, how does that make, lets say, a hardworking nurse living next door feel, earning marginally more but popping a ******* all day for the cause?

I don't think anyone here has any disagreement on the CEO thing, in fact I've been more outspoken than anyone on it, but that wasn't the issue being discussed

[Geoff Parkstone]

I think we all know people who "work the system", some more than others. In my case it's a South African woman who racks up huge bills on credit cards and simply ignores them for the necessary years that they get written off. Not just one but countless. Also claims rent payment support off council / tax credits, but still defaults on rent and works in the grey market whilst still claiming full benefits. Brand new phones, new cars, holidays regularly. How do I know? She openly brags about it. Should be shot /imprisoned/departed in that order

[SithHappens]

I agree I think anecdotally a lot us can point to someone who works the system.

Some more so than others. In my case they never have had the flash things in life, no new cars, no fancy overseas holidays, they have been happy 'getting by' in order not to work. I know equally, or if not more, people who work hard and struggle to get by though.

For me its the narrative in the media that the country is full of lay abouts is wrong but people will lap it up.

[MadAmster]

must admit don't fully understand but with PR don't you need a majority share of the vote? i.e 50 % plus? That never happens

Which is why there's (almost) always a coalition. here in NL tends to be one of between 3 and 5 parties. It ensures that the "sharp edges" are filed down. Extreme policy gets blocked and you get either centre right or centre left policy getting pushed.

We had an election last November. The 4 parties have just come to an agreement. They have agreed to appoint a fair few "expert" Ministers who are not necessarily aligned to a party. They are also looking at inviting qualified members of opposition parties to be Ministers. Until a patent issue sowed doubts on the integrity of a former minister belonging to the PvdA (basically Dutch Labour and as much out of touch with their original base as Labour is) was being invited to be Prime Minister. The New Cabinet is expected to be installed in the next 4 to 5 weeks.

Since the election, the old cabinet has remained "in power". Taking decisions they believe necessary. Those have to be ratified by the new 1st and 2nd chambers in order for them to happen.

[ramAnag]

I think we all know people who "work the system", some more than others. In my case it's a South African woman who racks up huge bills on credit cards and simply ignores them for the necessary years that they get written off. Not just one but countless. Also claims rent payment support off council / tax credits, but still defaults on rent and works in the grey market whilst still claiming full benefits. Brand new phones, new cars, holidays regularly. How do I know? She openly brags about it. Should be shot /imprisoned/departed in that order

I agree, we all know people who ‘work the system’…but I certainly don’t know anyone who works it to the extent of your ‘South African woman’ or Andy’s well travelled friend.
We mustn’t lose perspective on this one. There’s a willingness to believe all we are told about ‘Benefit Street’ skivers but aren’t those from ‘Entitlement Avenue’ who play the other end of the spectrum - MP’s expenses and Covid profiteers spring to mind as the most obviously hypocritical - just as guilty and even more costly?
There are many more forms of ‘working the system’ but the upcoming GE is about many things…best not to get hung up on benefits and boats imo, however much they might want us to.

[MadAmster]

Mid 80s to mid 90s I knew a Dutch lad, in his 20s and early 30s, who "played the system". Not particularly lazy but was happy with the lifestyle he had. He would work, and work hard, getting decent money, up to the point where he qualified for the dole. Then spend as much time on the dole as was allowed. Wash, rinse, repeat.

One day, he decided he wanted to improve his standard of living and entered the workforce full time and permanently. It might be that I had a hand in it. One day he asked me why I and others in our "circle" didn't seem to appreciate his perfectly legal lifestyle. I replied that, whilst I didn't condone it, as long as he could get away with it and was happy with it, I wasn't overly worried. I did point out that my taxes and those of the rest of our friends were keeping him but we didn't complain as it was legal. I went on to point out that he'd been lucky to get away with it for some 10 years and that, sooner or later, prospective employers would start to see a pattern and not want to take the risk that he'd be gone in 6 to 9 months and he might find gaining employ in a role he wanted and at a wage he would want getting ever more difficult.

[Andy_Faber]

I agree, we all know people who ‘work the system’…but I certainly don’t know anyone who works it to the extent of your ‘South African woman’ or Andy’s well travelled friend.
We mustn’t lose perspective on this one. There’s a willingness to believe all we are told about ‘Benefit Street’ skivers but aren’t those from ‘Entitlement Avenue’ who play the other end of the spectrum - MP’s expenses and Covid profiteers spring to mind as the most obviously hypocritical - just as guilty and even more costly?
There are many more forms of ‘working the system’ but the upcoming GE is about many things…best not to get hung up on benefits and boats imo, however much they might want us to.

One point correction rA, if ‘we’ includes me, I believe what I see more than what I’m told. If my ‘well travelled friend’ was the only example I had, I wouldn’t have mentioned her but I’m aware of many, some definitely ‘playing’, some more innocent/ignorant including another South African family I know (probably not GPs pal) who, when I discussed it with them, didn’t actually recognise/accept that they were on benefits!

NB yes the GE is about many things and yes including your Covid profiteer targets, but whether justified or not ‘benefit scroungers’ will be a contentious issue and be thankful we have (temporarily at least) moved off immigration…

[ramAnag]

One point correction rA, if ‘we’ includes me, I believe what I see more than what I’m told. If my ‘well travelled friend’ was the only example I had, I wouldn’t have mentioned her but I’m aware of many, some definitely ‘playing’, some more innocent/ignorant including another South African family I know (probably not GPs pal) who, when I discussed it with them, didn’t actually recognise/accept that they were on benefits!

NB yes the GE is about many things and yes including your Covid profiteer targets, but whether justified or not ‘benefit scroungers’ will be a contentious issue and be thankful we have (temporarily at least) moved off immigration…

Doubtless immigration will be an issue, Andy, and benefit scrounging - in whatever form - too, but for me they are relatively insignificant compared with the rebuilding of our health, education, social, policing and sewage/water treatment systems not to mention the cost of living, the housing situation and our roads and railways all after years of neglect. I’ll add in the behaviour of (largely) Tory MP’s and PM’s over the last five years and don’t get me started on the ludicrous attempt to reintroduce National Service which is, I believe, absolutely guaranteed to backfire and alienate not just younger voters but their parents and grandparents too.

P.S. I don’t think GP’s South African was a ‘pal’. Didn’t he want her shot?

[swaledale]

I think we all know people who "work the system", some more than others. In my case it's a South African woman who racks up huge bills on credit cards and simply ignores them for the necessary years that they get written off. Not just one but countless. Also claims rent payment support off council / tax credits, but still defaults on rent and works in the grey market whilst still claiming full benefits. Brand new phones, new cars, holidays regularly. How do I know? She openly brags about it. Should be shot /imprisoned/departed in that order

Ah yes, we all know somebody who makes brash claims, as to how true those claims might be, well I guess you believe what you want to believe. I know there are all sorts of scammers, drug dealers etc. etc. who I'd be putting the squeeze on first but it doesn't fit he narrative.

[Ramshank72]

"Replacing Rishi with Starmer is like being a kid in the 70's and being told that the Jimmy Saville visit has been cancelled, only to hear the sound of a didgeridoo coming down the corridor."
Not my joke, but found it funny.

[Andy_Faber]

"Replacing Rishi with Starmer is like being a kid in the 70's and being told that the Jimmy Saville visit has been cancelled, only to hear the sound of a didgeridoo coming down the corridor."
Not my joke, but found it funny.

We don’t do humour on here son

But yes I did too

[swaledale]

I have an issue with anecdotal evidence even if it supports my POV! For one simple reason its very often false! In your example you have no idea by your own admission how the holiday is funded. There could be any number of perfectly reasonable explanations for that why pick the one that says "Scam"?

A universal income would be paid to everybody, so if one works, it enhances ones lifestyle always presuming that a person wishes to have the rewards that a paying job provides.

I don't understand why people are so keen to "punch down" on those they feel are gaming the system, yet ignore the far bigger financial and other scams that are happening elsewhere. Given that tax evasion and avoidance is costing the Uk more, I'm more irritated by people who earn millions paying an effective tax rate around half of what I pay then somebody scraping around at the bottom.

Having worked with lower income groups, there is no way I'd want their lifestyle and I doubt many of the people moaning about it would either.

I mentioned the CEO's et all, precisely to make the point, there is a tendency to "punch down" and in doing so overlook the real scammers and people playing the system. I suspect that's because many people don't think avoiding tax, not paying full wages or getting an unfair advantage through connections or private education is exactly what they would do if they had the chance.

[Andy_Faber]

I have an issue with anecdotal evidence even if it supports my POV! For one simple reason its very often false! In your example you have no idea by your own admission how the holiday is funded.

You need to start reading posts before you reply rather than imagining whats written. I have every idea how its funded. I also didn't use the anecdote as an example of a 'scam', as far as I know everything she does is within the law.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Ah yes, we all know somebody who makes brash claims, as to how true those claims might be, well I guess you believe what you want to believe. I know there are all sorts of scammers, drug dealers etc. etc. who I'd be putting the squeeze on first but it doesn't fit he narrative.

As you want evidential matter - (a) credit cards, has gone thru courts, tens of thousands due, ordered to pay £1 a week as "no assets - nice car a necessity to take kids to school (both over 16)", "no earnings to attach" (b) rent - taken to court by landlord, again ordered to pay token amount as no assets/earnings (c) know works on grey market as offered to do cleaning for me! "if could fit it in" for cash. I declined.