Election Year or Fear!

[Andy_Faber]

I don't understand why people are so keen to "punch down" on those they feel are gaming the system,

If you were the hardworking (ancillary nurse) neighbour of my ‘friend’ and dragged yourself home after a shift of blood and guts and ten hours away from home, looked over the fence and saw that my friend has been sunning herself and glugging wine all afto, I think you’d want to punch down, I don’t know her personally but I have sympathy with her. And that’s the unheralded part of this equation, forget the cash side for a mo, my friend has (leisure) TIME that her worker neighbour, not on a great pay rate, will never have in her working life

[ramAnag]

As you want evidential matter - (a) credit cards, has gone thru courts, tens of thousands due, ordered to pay £1 a week as "no assets - nice car a necessity to take kids to school (both over 16)", "no earnings to attach" (b) rent - taken to court by landlord, again ordered to pay token amount as no assets/earnings (c) know works on grey market as offered to do cleaning for me! "if could fit it in" for cash. I declined.

Was ‘cleaning’ a euphemism?

What I really don’t understand is how this person Andy speaks of remains, in his own words, a ‘friend’.
You seem genuinely, and understandably, contemptuous of her, AF. Personally I don’t have friends I am contemptuous of. Contempt disqualifies friendship.

[Andy_Faber]

Was ‘cleaning’ a euphemism?

What I really don’t understand is how this person Andy speaks of remains, in his own words, a ‘friend’.
You seem genuinely, and understandably, contemptuous of her, AF. Personally I don’t have friends I am contemptuous of. Contempt disqualifies friendship.

I have many imperfect friends rA, and as imperfect myself I am grateful for the tolerance and friendship of others. If you only seek perfection in your friends you must be a lonely chap. I have no contempt, she’s a nice person, doing nothing illegal or immoral, in the same way that I, a tax payer, do nothing illegal or immoral in paying no unnecessary tax. My point is that ‘the system’ is allowing her to live the relatively leisurely life she lives, and that same system deprives her hard-working public servant neighbour that same luxury

On a related subject, reading Swale’s last long response again, I note that he suggests providing what I think is a ‘flat rate’ cash award to everyone, workers or not, and yes that would be great but I don’t see how it could be afforded so it’s a bit idealistic.

[Geoff Parkstone]

No, although the local talk is that additional services are availablr

[Andy_Faber]

Aaaand…we have The Tories potential secret weapon as first news item on the ten oclock news

[ramAnag]

I have many imperfect friends rA, and as imperfect myself I am grateful for the tolerance and friendship of others. If you only seek perfection in your friends you must be a lonely chap. I have no contempt, she’s a nice person, doing nothing illegal or immoral, in the same way that I, a tax payer, do nothing illegal or immoral in paying no unnecessary tax. My point is that ‘the system’ is allowing her to live the relatively leisurely life she lives, and that same system deprives her hard-working public servant neighbour that same luxury

I never mentioned perfection, AF, neither have I ever claimed it for myself - far from it - and I’m equally far from being lonely…thanks.
Just seems strange to me that you can refer to someone as a friend and a ‘nice person’ while simultaneously using her behaviour as an example of something you find wrong, if not illegal (immoral is a more complex question), within society. Someone who ‘plays the system and avoids honest graft’ was your phrase if I remember correctly.

[Andy_Faber]

I never mentioned perfection, AF, neither have I ever claimed it for myself - far from it - and I’m equally far from being lonely…thanks.
Just seems strange to me that you can refer to someone as a friend and a ‘nice person’ while simultaneously using her behaviour as an example of something you find wrong, if not illegal (immoral is a more complex question), within society. Someone who ‘plays the system and avoids honest graft’ was your phrase if I remember correctly.

Maybe it’s the Christian in my rA. Perhaps you should try it some time before it becomes illegal

[ramAnag]

Maybe it’s the Christian in my rA. Perhaps you should try it some time before it becomes illegal

Maybe…or maybe it’s that fence you need to climb down off. I’ve not got a lot of time for the ‘she’s a lovely person/he’s a really nice fella…apart from…’ school of thought.
You’ll have to remind me of any parables advocating ripping off the system and never working for a living.

[Andy_Faber]

Maybe…or maybe it’s that fence you need to climb down off. I’ve not got a lot of time for the ‘she’s a lovely person/he’s a really nice fella…apart from…’ school of thought.
You’ll have to remind me of any parables advocating ripping off the system and never working for a living.

You continue to misunderstand, and I think deliberately so, so I’ll withdraw from the conversation

[Geoff Parkstone]

rA, if it helps I think the doctrine is "I don't like what you do but I respect your right to do it" to sort of paraphrase EB Hall

[ramAnag]

You continue to misunderstand, and I think deliberately so, so I’ll withdraw from the conversation

Not sure what I’ve misunderstood, let alone deliberately. You have a friend - a ‘nice person’ - whose behaviour you disapprove of and chose to introduce as an example of a societal problem. Your choice…bit odd to me, but I’m not going to fall out about it.

[Andy_Faber]

Not sure what I’ve misunderstood, let alone deliberately. You have a friend - a ‘nice person’ - whose behaviour you disapprove of and chose to introduce as an example of a societal problem. Your choice…bit odd to me, but I’m not going to fall out about it.

Just one last point of clarification, I didn’t say I disapprove of her behaviour, to quote Marwood ‘you merely imagined it’.

[ramAnag]

Just one last point of clarification, I didn’t say I disapprove of her behaviour, to quote Marwood ‘you merely imagined it’.

Indeed you didn’t…you just expressed clear sympathy for her harder working neighbour and her probable desire to ‘punch down’ on your ‘friend’…i.e. attack and criticise her from her position on the hard working moral high ground. See, I do read what you write.

P.S. With apologies to MPFC, ‘is this the five minute argument or the full half hour’? Only you keep saying you’re stopping before starting off all over again.

[swaledale]

Maybe…or maybe it’s that fence you need to climb down off. I’ve not got a lot of time for the ‘she’s a lovely person/he’s a really nice fella…apart from…’ school of thought.
You’ll have to remind me of any parables advocating ripping off the system and never working for a living.

Its along the lines of I'm not Racist because I have a relative going out with a black/ brown person BUT.

personally I thinks it s another of AF's BS which he trots out from time to time to justify his POV, those anecdotes are entertaining, but any similarity to reality is entirely coincidental.

[swaledale]

I have many imperfect friends rA, and as imperfect myself I am grateful for the tolerance and friendship of others. If you only seek perfection in your friends you must be a lonely chap. I have no contempt, she’s a nice person, doing nothing illegal or immoral, in the same way that I, a tax payer, do nothing illegal or immoral in paying no unnecessary tax. My point is that ‘the system’ is allowing her to live the relatively leisurely life she lives, and that same system deprives her hard-working public servant neighbour that same luxury

On a related subject, reading Swale’s last long response again, I note that he suggests providing what I think is a ‘flat rate’ cash award to everyone, workers or not, and yes that would be great but I don’t see how it could be afforded so it’s a bit idealistic.

Yes that's what a universal income means!! The reason you can't see how it could be afforded is because your still thinking in current economic terms, it does after all require a paradigm shift in thinking from the protestant work ethic and usual economic models.

There are however some examples of what approximates to a universal income, worth researching if ones interested.

I'll throw one thing into the mix though, the technological advances that have happened in the last 50 years, could have been used to reduce everyone's working time, but instead have been exploited to make a small percentage of the population richer. Sure there have been benefits for others but not the extent that those in the very top income brackets have benefitted. Now a truly equal society would share those around.