Election Year or Fear!

[swaledale]

It’s called integrity, AF. He has none. Nothing to do with being ‘personable’. I can’t imagine anyone being allowed to remain in any position of authority with his track record let alone as leader of the ‘free world’.

TrickyÂ…saying that Islam/Blair are as bad is a non argument. I donÂ’t agree with how Blair lied - though prior to that I thought he was the best PM of my lifetime - and I donÂ’t agree with many aspects of Islam, but weÂ’re not talking about themÂ…this conversation is about TrumpÂ’s suitability to be PotUS and, imo, he is a deranged individual totally devoid of integrity.

RA, your not making the distinction between those that enable Trump, those who are no fools, and should and do know better, but see him as the path to power despite his undoubted flaws and indeed unscrupulous, criminal behaviour and the average voter who swallows the rhetoric, which appeals to their narrow perspective. AF is actually right in what he says, peoples concerns are very parochial, especially so in the US where millions have little knowledge or awareness of what happens elsewhere in the world or indeed give a toss.

The appeal of the populist is that they offer simple solutions to complex issues, in reality they often offer no solutions just broad unsubstantiated claims, which sound attractive to the majority of what in the US is a very unsophisticated voter base. I mean people who think having 10 days a holiday a year, piss poor wages and very basic health care, whilst an elite enjoy massive salaries and all the perks (of which Trump and his entourage are ironically a part of) and don't think that's odd clearly aren't deep thinkers.

Populists by their nature appear attractive to many because they appeal to be "different", they position themselves as being "one of them" - again Trump with his inherited wealth and lifestyle is about as far from being an ordinary American as one can get, but given the ordinary American doesn't actually think that deeply, they don't care. Somebody different from the rest of the political class is offering them something different, no matter that last time he was in power he didn't actually achieve much that changed things to their extremely simple view of life he might.

Your not wrong to class many of these voters as fools, because that's one of the problems politicians have the world over, the majority of the electorate aren't that bright or actually bothered about thinking deeply about matters, they want a politician that provides the things they value. Lets face it capitalism as it currently operates wouldn't succeed if people actually thought deeply about it, the populists know that if they can keep the majority happy either by lies or bribes, then they can continue to enjoy power and their lifestyles in plain sight.

We really haven't come that far from the peasants being kept in order by a small powerful cabal and indeed that's where Musk and Trump and the others would like to return to. The irony being that Musk and others like him, have openly said that people are too stupid for democracy, they want totalitarian regimes, the benevolent dictator because they know the vast majority of people are either not bothered or too stupid to understand the ramifications.

[ramAnag]

Just take a rest rA. This discussion started this morning when you described a reasonable proportion of the US electorate as fools. There was no reference, argument or defence by me of Trump, merely of the likelihood that some of those for which you expressed disdain do actually make informed decisions. Regrettably youÂ’ve lost that particular plot in your desperation to tag as many negative adjectives to the names those you dislike, on this occasion Trump. If you canÂ’t stick to the subject at hand itÂ’s not worth me discussing

‘If you can’t stick to the subject in hand it’s not worth me discussing’.

So - the ‘subject in hand’ was opened last February with me questioning the suitability of both Trump and Biden as the next POTUS.

Fortunately, imo, Biden has since withdrawn. Unfortunately, also imo, Trump remains.

Since then the subject has broadened and yesterday morning I suggested that the alleged 25% of young black men who are turning to Trump are ‘fools’.

You quickly jumped on that claiming that I’d described a ‘reasonable proportion of the U.S. electorate’ as fools.

So…totally sticking ‘to the subject in hand’ so far…but beyond that, I haven’t been, as you suggest, desperate ‘to tag as many negative adjectives’ to the name of Trump as I can.
Easy as that would be, I have taken just four examples of his behaviour (there are many, many more) which would suggest him to be a stupid, misogynistic, treacherous criminal.

I’ve backed up all four of those claims with examples which leaves two simple questions for you, both very much concerned with the ‘subject at hand’.

1. Which of my four examples/descriptors are you challenging?

2. How can a candidate who exhibits such stupidity, misogyny, treachery and criminality appeal to anyone other than a fool?

[Geoff Parkstone]

It’s called integrity, AF. He has none. Nothing to do with being ‘personable’. I can’t imagine anyone being allowed to remain in any position of authority with his track record let alone as leader of the ‘free world’.

Tricky…saying that Islam/Blair are as bad is a non argument. I don’t agree with how Blair lied - though prior to that I thought he was the best PM of my lifetime - and I don’t agree with many aspects of Islam, but we’re not talking about them…this conversation is about Trump’s suitability to be PotUS and, imo, he is a deranged individual totally devoid of integrity.7

Who do you now think of as the best PM of your lifetime?

[ramAnag]

Who do you now think of as the best PM of your lifetime?

Lol. Still Blair, pre WMD lies, but it’s a very low bar.

[Trickytreesreds]

Just take a rest rA. This discussion started this morning when you described a reasonable proportion of the US electorate as fools. There was no reference, argument or defence by me of Trump, merely of the likelihood that some of those for which you expressed disdain do actually make informed decisions. Regrettably you’ve lost that particular plot in your desperation to tag as many negative adjectives to the names those you dislike, on this occasion Trump. If you can’t stick to the subject at hand it’s not worth me discussing

Any election is the same. Both camps can say the other side are fools. Its a point of view. Many said the same voting for an old man, who clearly had mental problems, as the leader of the free world. He got worse during office and could have started ww3 for all anyone knew.
As I said earlier, my sister had recently returned from the States, after visting her husbands ex commanding officer. What she picked up was the expense of things have gone through the roof, especially food. (that must hurt). And the migration flooding being of biblical terms under the Democrats. So depending who you talk to, both sides can say not fit for office, even Harris, as it was her job to sort immigration out, 10 million in 3 years? WOW.
nb, side note- the officers son told my sis, that everyone in the area they were in, now carries a side arm, under permit. A sad development of the Biden administration.

There are bigger issues than personality to consider in a countrys well being.

[ramAnag]

RA, your not making the distinction between those that enable Trump, those who are no fools, and should and do know better, but see him as the path to power despite his undoubted flaws and indeed unscrupulous, criminal behaviour and the average voter who swallows the rhetoric, which appeals to their narrow perspective. AF is actually right in what he says, peoples concerns are very parochial, especially so in the US where millions have little knowledge or awareness of what happens elsewhere in the world or indeed give a toss.

The appeal of the populist is that they offer simple solutions to complex issues, in reality they often offer no solutions just broad unsubstantiated claims, which sound attractive to the majority of what in the US is a very unsophisticated voter base. I mean people who think having 10 days a holiday a year, piss poor wages and very basic health care, whilst an elite enjoy massive salaries and all the perks (of which Trump and his entourage are ironically a part of) and don't think that's odd clearly aren't deep thinkers.

Populists by their nature appear attractive to many because they appeal to be "different", they position themselves as being "one of them" - again Trump with his inherited wealth and lifestyle is about as far from being an ordinary American as one can get, but given the ordinary American doesn't actually think that deeply, they don't care. Somebody different from the rest of the political class is offering them something different, no matter that last time he was in power he didn't actually achieve much that changed things to their extremely simple view of life he might.

Your not wrong to class many of these voters as fools, because that's one of the problems politicians have the world over, the majority of the electorate aren't that bright or actually bothered about thinking deeply about matters, they want a politician that provides the things they value. Lets face it capitalism as it currently operates wouldn't succeed if people actually thought deeply about it, the populists know that if they can keep the majority happy either by lies or bribes, then they can continue to enjoy power and their lifestyles in plain sight.

We really haven't come that far from the peasants being kept in order by a small powerful cabal and indeed that's where Musk and Trump and the others would like to return to. The irony being that Musk and others like him, have openly said that people are too stupid for democracy, they want totalitarian regimes, the benevolent dictator because they know the vast majority of people are either not bothered or too stupid to understand the ramifications.

We overlapped, Swale. Agree with the vast majority of those well made points, not least the dilemma between the theoretical values of democracy v enlightened despotism, but we aren’t there (yet?) and at the moment my brain can only deal with the possibilities and dangers of what is likely to happen across the Atlantic in the next three weeks or so.
As I’ve probably said before…having close family over there, remembering the scenes in Washington when Trump lost and being mindful of some of the ‘threats’ already made my fears are personal as well as political.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Drifting tangentially slightly, who is worse: Trump himself or his typical supporter.? If there wasn't a Trump, would the supporters create a faux Trump to act as spokesman for their beliefs?

[MadAmster]

Does it matter too much who wins next month?

Biden hasn't reversed the tax breaks for the rich brought in by Trump in 2017. Breaks he roundly criticised at the time.

Whoever gets in will do whatever his paymasters want. That's why the likes of Musk et al pour huge amounts of money into campaigns. Simply, to get favourable treatment from the new administration. The bulk of policy is the same or similar with 10 to 15% round the 2 extremes that vary. Two cheeks of the same arse.

[ramAnag]

Does it matter too much who wins next month?

Biden hasn't reversed the tax breaks for the rich brought in by Trump in 2017. Breaks he roundly criticised at the time.

Whoever gets in will do whatever his paymasters want. That's why the likes of Musk et al pour huge amounts of money into campaigns. Simply, to get favourable treatment from the new administration. The bulk of policy is the same or similar with 10 to 15% round the 2 extremes that vary. Two cheeks of the same arse.

I think it matters, MA, that we don’t have a ‘leader of the free world’ who is a convicted criminal with openly misogynistic and racist views.

If an individual holding a relatively ‘junior’ authority figure role - eg GP, bank manager, headteacher, police chief, council leader, football manager - had behaved in the same way as Trump then I think it likely they would have been removed from their position.

I accept your criticism of what amounts to the U.S. ‘establishment’, but would ask…how can it be right for someone to be regarded as fit for holding the office of the most powerful person in the West when their behaviour would prohibit them from running a school or local council?

[swaledale]

Drifting tangentially slightly, who is worse: Trump himself or his typical supporter.? If there wasn't a Trump, would the supporters create a faux Trump to act as spokesman for their beliefs?

An interesting question. I'd say Trump and others like him because they know they are selling snake oil, they know they are telling lies, they know what they are doing is corrupt or criminal but think that laws and such are for the little people.

His supporters, discounting the enablers who are in it for what they can get, are just looking for somebody to provide simple answers that fit in with their views and provide simple answers to matters they don't wish to bother with. So I can't see them having either having the ability or the inclination to create a faux Trump, that would require some deep thinking.

There's a reason fundamental Christianity is big in the US, it provides a comforting answer to those difficult and often unanswerable questions.

[swaledale]

Does it matter too much who wins next month?

Biden hasn't reversed the tax breaks for the rich brought in by Trump in 2017. Breaks he roundly criticised at the time.

Whoever gets in will do whatever his paymasters want. That's why the likes of Musk et al pour huge amounts of money into campaigns. Simply, to get favourable treatment from the new administration. The bulk of policy is the same or similar with 10 to 15% round the 2 extremes that vary. Two cheeks of the same arse.

I think your overlooking the fact that one party at least pays lip service to the rule of law and the principles of democracy which is essential for stability in the world.

[MadAmster]

... and now Musk is giving away $1M, in sort of raffle, every weekend to a Trump voter.

Surely, that must count as bribery and/or unfair influencing of the ballot?

[Andy_Faber]

... and now Musk is giving away $1M, in sort of raffle, every weekend to a Trump voter.

Surely, that must count as bribery and/or unfair influencing of the ballot?

Looking at the wording of the conditions I doubt he’s breaking the law but obviously we here don’t know the whole story or the whole of US state law. The ‘raffle’ is open to all, and there is no link to voting. Not That I can see anyway.

[Andy_Faber]

It appears to be every day by the way

[ramAnag]

... and now Musk is giving away $1M, in sort of raffle, every weekend to a Trump voter.

Surely, that must count as bribery and/or unfair influencing of the ballot?

It’s DAILY, I believe MA…everyday between now and the election, but only open to those, in the ‘swing states’ who sign up to America PAC which is essentially Musk’s political group set up in support of Trump’s election campaign.

Either way it stinks imo. What price democracy? About $1m or £767k per day apparently.