Election Year or Fear!

[MadAmster]

They have been challenged sith to show this black hole. They refuse to do so.
I take that as a lie then and the black hole we now have, is after all the pay rises/ the white elephant GB energy/ foreign aid/ foreign climate aid/ asylum fiasco/ all the little ones added together like donations to African spice girls band, or dance troops.

Pay rises. I don't think anybody could, successfully, argue that doctors and nurses didn't deserve a hefty rise. Well deserved IMO. Add to that the fact that, due to the low wage and high hours, doctors and nurses were leaving at a great rate to get jobs either in the private sector or abroad then the rises were totally necessary to keep the NHS alive. Hopefully, this rise will stem the flow and encourage more to join the NHS. I also think their next rise will also be higher than inflation.

The train drivers? Don't they work for privately owned rail companies. How would their pay rise affect government coffers? As I've said before, the Blue Tory HMG getting involved and putting the mockers on any real wage negotiations was strange as, in reality, it's not their job to negotiate wage rates and/or T&C's in the private sphere. It was a purely political move on their part and should not, IMO, have happened. What will happen down the line ( ) will be interesting to follow. What I don't ever see being agreed to is railway employees agreeing to more weekend working tied to a decrease in weekend working premiums, ditto night shifts and they also won't agree to things they deem to lessen passenger safety. Personally, I can't say I disagree with them. The cure? When franchises expire, don't extend them. Let a national enterprise take over and run them for the good of passengers. Most are foreign owned. At least one is Dutch owned and the dividend they get helps keep our train service running somewhat better than the UK trains.

[Trickytreesreds]

Pay rises. I don't think anybody could, successfully, argue that doctors and nurses didn't deserve a hefty rise. Well deserved IMO. Add to that the fact that, due to the low wage and high hours, doctors and nurses were leaving at a great rate to get jobs either in the private sector or abroad then the rises were totally necessary to keep the NHS alive. Hopefully, this rise will stem the flow and encourage more to join the NHS. I also think their next rise will also be higher than inflation.

The train drivers? Don't they work for privately owned rail companies. How would their pay rise affect government coffers? As I've said before, the Blue Tory HMG getting involved and putting the mockers on any real wage negotiations was strange as, in reality, it's not their job to negotiate wage rates and/or T&C's in the private sphere. It was a purely political move on their part and should not, IMO, have happened. What will happen down the line ( ) will be interesting to follow. What I don't ever see being agreed to is railway employees agreeing to more weekend working tied to a decrease in weekend working premiums, ditto night shifts and they also won't agree to things they deem to lessen passenger safety. Personally, I can't say I disagree with them. The cure? When franchises expire, don't extend them. Let a national enterprise take over and run them for the good of passengers. Most are foreign owned. At least one is Dutch owned and the dividend they get helps keep our train service running somewhat better than the UK trains.

Pay rises. If they caused the black hole, then they should say so, not insinuate the Tories left them one.

As for train drivers. That job is a 7 day a week job. Like airlines or the police/medical/fire/prisons. Week end premiums should have nothing to do with it. This is one of the last bastiens of Union muscle areas, over paying for a job that is low skill.
train fares are ridiculously high, but over heads on a white elephant drive it.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Train driving is perhaps low on skill (now) but high on responsibility. So it's finding a compromise solution as regards remuneration policy. The fact remains that technology is downgrading the role and hence it's relative worth and the unions are fighting the advance of technology to maintain wage levels whilst using passenger safety as the "public face excuse" to retain support.

Like the luddites 200 odd years ago they (and indeed others) are fighting the advance of technology and AI which threatens the long term future of their jobs /value of those jobs. It's the same in many sectors, mine included, where humans are rapidly becoming obsolete.

This is not so much just a cash grab but it is about the future relevance of the workforce

[MadAmster]

Pay rises. If they caused the black hole, then they should say so, not insinuate the Tories left them one.

As for train drivers. That job is a 7 day a week job. Like airlines or the police/medical/fire/prisons. Week end premiums should have nothing to do with it. This is one of the last bastiens of Union muscle areas, over paying for a job that is low skill.
train fares are ridiculously high, but over heads on a white elephant drive it.

Which part of "Rail personnel work for private companies, not for the government" have you failed to understand. HMG does NOT pay train drivers or ticket office staff or those that man the barriers. How could giving rail staff a rise affect HMG deficits?

I suppose you also think doctors and nurses aren't worth being paid well enough to keep the NHS from folding?

Do you misunderstand on purpose or are you so intent on, for some ultra strange reason, being right and/or having the last word.

Just for you, I'll repeat, HMG, whether the Blue or the Red variety DO NOT pay train personnel.

The NHS was haemorrhaging staff due to long hours and low pay. The rise was necessary to stop it crumbling altogether and being sold off to the private system and that would result in huge costs for medical treatment. Insurance payments would go through the roof. We'd have loads of people going bankrupt because they can't pay their medical bills. In the USA that's around half a million people a year going bust.

Do you ever think things through?

[Trickytreesreds]

Which part of "Rail personnel work for private companies, not for the government" have you failed to understand. HMG does NOT pay train drivers or ticket office staff or those that man the barriers. How could giving rail staff a rise affect HMG deficits?

I suppose you also think doctors and nurses aren't worth being paid well enough to keep the NHS from folding?

Do you misunderstand on purpose or are you so intent on, for some ultra strange reason, being right and/or having the last word.

Just for you, I'll repeat, HMG, whether the Blue or the Red variety DO NOT pay train personnel.

The NHS was haemorrhaging staff due to long hours and low pay. The rise was necessary to stop it crumbling altogether and being sold off to the private system and that would result in huge costs for medical treatment. Insurance payments would go through the roof. We'd have loads of people going bankrupt because they can't pay their medical bills. In the USA that's around half a million people a year going bust.

Do you ever think things through?

Do you? The question was the black hole. You know, that thing that Labour keeps crowing about, but won't give any evidence as to its origin?
Whether I agree on the pay rises or not, is irrellevent to the question.
You have twisted it away from the onus of proof, to a guilt trip.
Perhaps you need to get off your high horse or fence.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Tricky - I think the point is "how can rail drivers pay rises contribute to a government black hole"?

The train companies pay the rises (and then hike ticket prices or reduce infrastructure investment etc) and not the government. Thus the black hole can't grow due to it, unless there is a central subsidy paid by HMG to the train operating companies which has also increased.

If anything the blackhole is reduced by the pay settlement as there is a resultant hike in PAYE and NI take due to the increase

[Trickytreesreds]

GP, I know that. But the government stepped in to pacify the unions. Because like it or not, It is all linked in. The trains are/ were costing the tax payer, in one form or another.
The unions were helping towards that black hole by costing the tax payer.
Poor industrial relations have caused disruption and delay for working people, prevented families from visiting loved ones and stopped the public from attending events, damaging the hospitality sector.

New industry estimates revealed today show that railway revenue forgone because of strikes since June 2022 has totalled around £850 million – a debilitating amount for the industry and a huge burden that falls directly on the taxpayer. Accounting for additional impacts of strikes, including those due to people being unable to work, or due to potential reductions in spending on hospitality and retail, the total impact likely exceeds £1 billion.

Giving in to them will cause the black hole to grow now, as the rest of the civil service kicks in and wants pie.

But it doesn't answer where the black hole comes from. They won't provide proof and all I have seen is money going out, not in.

[ramAnag]

GP, I know that. But the government stepped in to pacify the unions. Because like it or not, It is all linked in. The trains are/ were costing the tax payer, in one form or another.
The unions were helping towards that black hole by costing the tax payer.
Poor industrial relations have caused disruption and delay for working people, prevented families from visiting loved ones and stopped the public from attending events, damaging the hospitality sector.

New industry estimates revealed today show that railway revenue forgone because of strikes since June 2022 has totalled around £850 million – a debilitating amount for the industry and a huge burden that falls directly on the taxpayer. Accounting for additional impacts of strikes, including those due to people being unable to work, or due to potential reductions in spending on hospitality and retail, the total impact likely exceeds £1 billion.

Giving in to them will cause the black hole to grow now, as the rest of the civil service kicks in and wants pie.

But it doesn't answer where the black hole comes from. They won't provide proof and all I have seen is money going out, not in.

I suspect you didn't, or - at the least - you’d forgotten…hence your rudeness to MA when he made exactly the same point as GP.

Where’s the ‘black hole’ come from? Well you were partly correct years ago when you were critical of the furlough scheme, but you’ve probably forgotten that too. In my view it was necessary but you were more critical and condemned it, saying it would cost this country for decades to come.
Probably right…the cost of the pandemic and furlough have been enormous and can be used as a partial excuse for the mess Labour have been left with.

Unfortunately for you/us, the other side of that coin is the amount of public money wasted by previous governments during Covid.

The New York Times reports that out of 1200 Covid contracts worth nearly £22bn approximately half went to companies either run by friends and associates of Conservative Party politicians or with no relevant experience.

The Good Law Project estimates that over 80% spent on PPE was wasted or ‘lost’.

Transparency International UK says that 20% of the Covid contracts awarded had red flags indicating ‘possible corruption’ attached to them.

I think your original comment was something about ‘chickens coming home to roost’ and you were probably right, albeit not in the way you imagined…but please now listen to MA and GP and start looking a little closer to home than the train drivers,

[swaledale]

In the Labour Party manifesto they stated ‘we will not increase National Insurance, the basic, higher, or additional rates of Income Tax, or VAT.’ That’s a direct lift from the manifesto, no rewording by me

This mornings news suggests they will

If they do, logic suggests they have lied their way to an election win just as much as the Leave campaign lied their way to Brexit

I repeat my mantra, ‘there are no clean hands in politic

Well if you live in the real world and not in some fantasy created by yourself, you'd realise that indeed there are no clean hands in politics, but that's partly because the majority of voters don't like reality and partly because to achieve any thing a range of vested interests have to be at least partially satisfied for anything to happen. Not to mention with the Labour party a level of hostility, scrutiny and indeed absolute falsehoods being constantly pushed out by the largely right wing media and associated internet sources and think tanks. Even the apparently "left wing" BBC is focusing on stuff that is largely irrelevant but apes the right wing media attacks.

Now of course you are being disingenuous because in the Manifesto, Labour had a "get out" which was the phrase "working people". Now ambiguous as that is it does mean your assertion that they lied is not true and certainly not anywhere near the total lies that the Leave Campaign put out, which were complete untruths.

As for why your feeling aggrieved, mm I'd hazard a guess that you might end up paying a bit more tax, as indeed might I. But there again I wasn't so naïve as to believe that the disastrous state of the country could be resolved without some tax rises somewhere.

Of course, Labour could reverse much of the economic damage and encourage growth by re-joining the customs union and also the single market, though the latter would mean freedom of movement which would spark howls of betrayal from the gammons, even though net migration has through necessity risen since Brexit.

[Andy_Faber]

Now of course you are being disingenuous because in the Manifesto, Labour had a "get out" which was the phrase "working people". Now ambiguous as that is it does mean your assertion that they lied is not true and certainly not anywhere near the total lies that the Leave Campaign put out, which were complete untruths.

.

If as suspected Labour do increase income tax rates under any circumstances, you are factually wrong, the way they worded it does not give them a get out, it simply makes them liars, thereÂ’s no ambiguity about it as anyone with a basic grasp of English would confirm. IÂ’m not suggesting for a moment they wonÂ’t plough on and IÂ’m also not suggesting IÂ’m bothered (IÂ’m more concerned that I canÂ’t get a pair of Uriah Heep tickets) but they ARE (or will be) liars

[Andy_Faber]

As for why you’re feeling aggrieved.

You’re making stuff up again, where did I say I felt aggrieved. I’m making a point about Labours ethics, not about any impact on me. Very little aggrieves me, paying a little extra tax here and there certainly doesn’t, the Tories attacked CGT (allowances) for instance, I just had to suck it up. Difference is they didn’t say they wouldn’t

[Andy_Faber]

Even the apparently "left wing" BBC is focusing on stuff that is largely irrelevant but apes the right wing media attacks.
.

Nothing especially to do with right or left but the BBC is progressively losing the plot - still the best but a shadow of its former self in many ways especially in news and current affairs

[MadAmster]

Do you? The question was the black hole. You know, that thing that Labour keeps crowing about, but won't give any evidence as to its origin?
Whether I agree on the pay rises or not, is irrellevent to the question.
You have twisted it away from the onus of proof, to a guilt trip.
Perhaps you need to get off your high horse or fence.

Yes, the black hole you seem to think was created by train drivers wage rises when the government DOES NOT pay train drivers, they get paid by the PRIVATE rail companies. I've twisted nothing. Merely pointed out that the train drivers have nothing to do with the black hole.

[Trickytreesreds]

I suspect you didn't, or - at the least - you’d forgotten…hence your rudeness to MA when he made exactly the same point as GP.

Where’s the ‘black hole’ come from? Well you were partly correct years ago when you were critical of the furlough scheme, but you’ve probably forgotten that too. In my view it was necessary but you were more critical and condemned it, saying it would cost this country for decades to come.
Probably right…the cost of the pandemic and furlough have been enormous and can be used as a partial excuse for the mess Labour have been left with.

Unfortunately for you/us, the other side of that coin is the amount of public money wasted by previous governments during Covid.

The New York Times reports that out of 1200 Covid contracts worth nearly £22bn approximately half went to companies either run by friends and associates of Conservative Party politicians or with no relevant experience.

The Good Law Project estimates that over 80% spent on PPE was wasted or ‘lost’.

Transparency International UK says that 20% of the Covid contracts awarded had red flags indicating ‘possible corruption’ attached to them.

I think your original comment was something about ‘chickens coming home to roost’ and you were probably right, albeit not in the way you imagined…but please now listen to MA and GP and start looking a little closer to home than the train drivers,

So why don't they say so? You cannot claim there was a black hole you didn't know about, (the figures were available), then refuse to provide proof of what was unknown. It makes no sense and we all know it is a ruse to cover up the inevitable tax rises to come. Its very convinient to solely just say 14 years of Tory rule. Its wearing thin now

[ramAnag]

So why don't they say so? You cannot claim there was a black hole you didn't know about, (the figures were available), then refuse to provide proof of what was unknown. It makes no sense and we all know it is a ruse to cover up the inevitable tax rises to come. Its very convinient to solely just say 14 years of Tory rule. Its wearing thin now

Possibly because they intend, rightly imo, to go after those responsible for the ‘misappropriation’ of the funds I mentioned and there maybe (please note the words ‘possibly’ and ‘maybe’) some legal aspect involved.

Possibly because it is much more complicated than the majority of the electorate can comprehend…it’s hardly unprecedented for new administrations to come into office and declare that things are much worse than they initially believed, is it?

Either way, 14 years of ‘Tory rule’ leaves little room for excuse, beyond Covid/Furlough, and anyone who has seen, for example, the decline in the NHS, the neglect of our schools, the environmental horrors and the collapse of our roads over recent years will be in little doubt of the need for a rebuild which, like it or not, is going to involve higher taxes.
IF that results in better dentistry, school buildings that are fit for purpose, shorter waiting lists, cleaner rivers and seas and better roads etc. and IF those with the ‘broadest shoulders’ are genuinely going to carry the greatest ‘burden’ then I, for one, will be supportive.