Election Year or Fear!

[swaledale]

My kids' school specialised in Nepalese for historical reasons I never fully understood - its not that they were good at rugger. But on average only about 5-6% of fee paying students come from overseas - and the imposition of Vat will reduce that I imagine. An all to rare example of labour reducing (albeit temporary) immigration. I think that 5-6% may include kids of Brits posted abroad and paid for by foreign employer.

In the interests of accuracy following a boom and bust in migration levels under the previous government, net migration to the UK dropped to pre-Brexit levels of around 200,000 in the year ending June 2025, according to new estimates from the Office for National Statistics.

Net migration—the number of people arriving long term minus the number leaving—fell to 204,000 in the year ending June 2025. This was a decline of 720,000 over the previous two years, from a peak of over 900,000. The decline was driven primarily by a 662,000 drop in non-EU net migration, although small declines in EU and British net migration also contributed.

After all you wouldn't want to be known expressing views that are demonstrably false, would you?

[Ram Pant]

When talking about fair taxation, should standard income tax rates be applied to dividends received through share ownership?

The Income Tax Bands
Any income you earn above your Personal Allowance is taxed according to these bands:

Basic Rate: From ?12,571 to ?50,270. You pay 20% tax on this portion.
Higher Rate: From ?50,271 to ?125,140. You pay 40% tax on this portion.
Additional Rate: Any income over ?125,140. You pay 45% tax on this portion.

Dividend Tax Rates and Bands
Dividend tax is calculated based on your overall taxable income, which includes both salary and dividends. The tax rates for dividends are lower than regular income tax rates, providing a tax-efficient way to pay yourself. The dividend tax bands are as follows:

Basic Rate: 8.75% on dividends over ?500
Higher Rate: 33.75% on dividends falling within this range
Additional Rate: 39.35% on dividends above ?125,140

Dividends are income, aren't they? Simply add dividend income to income earned through work and pay the tax.

[Andy_Faber]

When talking about fair taxation, should standard income tax rates be applied to dividends received through share ownership?

The Income Tax Bands
Any income you earn above your Personal Allowance is taxed according to these bands:

Basic Rate: From ?12,571 to ?50,270. You pay 20% tax on this portion.
Higher Rate: From ?50,271 to ?125,140. You pay 40% tax on this portion.
Additional Rate: Any income over ?125,140. You pay 45% tax on this portion.

Dividend Tax Rates and Bands
Dividend tax is calculated based on your overall taxable income, which includes both salary and dividends. The tax rates for dividends are lower than regular income tax rates, providing a tax-efficient way to pay yourself. The dividend tax bands are as follows:

Basic Rate: 8.75% on dividends over ?500
Higher Rate: 33.75% on dividends falling within this range
Additional Rate: 39.35% on dividends above ?125,140

Dividends are income, aren't they? Simply add dividend income to income earned through work and pay the tax.

From the small business owner perspective I?ve always seen this as a reward for effort/risk of, say, the honest hard working electrician or tree surgeon. You could say that doesn?t apply in every case but I?d counter by saying that?s true for all taxes and allowances, there?s always anomalies

NB that?s a dispassionate view, I?m not a small business owner/shareholder, and I?m guessing my perspective isn?t that of HMG, I don?t know their logic

[ramAnag]

What definitely wouldn't be fair though would be to deny 'hard working parents' their choice to invest in their children

…and yet that’s exactly what we do, AF. Not in the way you’re thinking of, but there are lots of ‘hard working’ but poorly paid parents who stand no chance of being able to afford the fees we’ve spoken of and can’t invest in their children’s education/future because they are based in the catchment area of a state school which suffers from lack of funding.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Simple answer - no. It's an income out of already taxed (effectively at BR) income - Corporation Tax has been paid on it already and the dividend is not tax deductible in the corporation tax calculation. The dividend tax that there is is substitute employers NI - it was created to avoid circumvention of erni by remunerating owners by dividend not salary.

[Ram Pant]

Simple answer - no. It's an income out of already taxed (effectively at BR) income - Corporation Tax has been paid on it already and the dividend is not tax deductible in the corporation tax calculation. The dividend tax that there is is substitute employers NI - it was created to avoid circumvention of erni by remunerating owners by dividend not salary.

Thanks for the succinct explanation.

[Andy_Faber]

…and yet that’s exactly what we do, AF. Not in the way you’re thinking of, but there are lots of ‘hard working’ but poorly paid parents who stand no chance of being able to afford the fees we’ve spoken of and can’t invest in their children’s education/future because they are based in the catchment area of a state school which suffers from lack of funding.

I still can't quite work out what your point or your end position is. Surely you aren't suggesting that all fee paying school resources are directed into the state sector? It just wouldn't work. Most estates (that I'm aware of) are leased from owners who are detached from the educational establishment so are out of reach, I can give you local examples of where it was considered and rejected. And very few fees are paid more than a term in advance so there would be negligible cash to distribute.

What's sad about the VAT tax grab is it has/will hurt those aspirational parents I've described who are/were prepared to make in some cases bloody massive sacrifices for the sake of their kids, yet it will have no impact on the swan sandwich munchers of Eton etc who have more than enough headroom to cope

[ramAnag]

I still can't quite work out what your point or your end position is. Surely you aren't suggesting that all fee paying school resources are directed into the state sector? It just wouldn't work. Most estates (that I'm aware of) are leased from owners who are detached from the educational establishment so are out of reach, I can give you local examples of where it was considered and rejected. And very few fees are paid more than a term in advance so there would be negligible cash to distribute.

What's sad about the VAT tax grab is it has/will hurt those aspirational parents I've described who are/were prepared to make in some cases bloody massive sacrifices for the sake of their kids, yet it will have no impact on the swan sandwich munchers of Eton etc who have more than enough headroom to cope

I’m just reacting to your suggestion that it would be unfair to deprive hard working parents of the opportunity to invest in their children’s education.
I recognise your point but having spent the whole of my professional life working with relatively deprived children I think I may have a different perspective.
Life isn’t fair, if it was good people wouldn’t suffer some of the horrible things that happen seemingly indiscriminately, while b@stards sometimes seem to get away with everything. There seems to be little we can do about that, God’s/Fortune’s will and all that.

On the other hand, in my former professional life, I came across some atrocious parents, people who should never have been allowed to breed (though how we do that I don’t know) but I also came across some of the best parents I’ve ever met who, coincidentally were amongst the poorest. They just needed more support.
That’s where I feel things are unfair. There seems little we can do about genuine misfortune but we can square the circle to some extent where entitlement to health care, shelter and, most particularly in this discussion, educational opportunity are concerned, but however ‘hardworking’ and diligent some are they will still never be able to provide in the way you so admire.

[Geoff Parkstone]

This is where scholarships, bursaries etc come in. The bright sparks born to parents of limited means can access education that way. The private schools can then filter the wheat from the chaff.

But then what of the thickies from poor backgrounds. Like it or not, this is what the state sector is best for. Getting those kids to entry level education and skills for the menial jobs that the country needs. There is little or no point putting everyone into better quality schools, you can't polish a turd and society needs the intellectually challenged as much as the future nobel prize winners.

That sounds harsh but it's reality, so don't expect the idealists to agree. IMHO too many kids are now going thru university anyway, many getting meaningless degrees and finding getting jobs after graduation very difficult.

[Geoff Parkstone]

For example the alumnus of the current prime minister, who was I believe a beneficiary of bursary funding. There are just under 1100 pupils there of which 150 have bursaries, scholarships etc. Thats lamost 15% of admissions.

The fees there for day pupils are about ? 9500 a term plus plenty of extras as a mate of mine can attest to having had a daughter there. Thats somewhat more expensive than Trent College and my alma mater as previously quoted. Bursaries can cover 110% of these fees.

I reckon 15% of your intake in a (medium high cost) private school aint a bad start to redressing the unfairness perceived by rA. And it didnt do 2TS any harm in terms of career progression.

[ramAnag]

This is where scholarships, bursaries etc come in. The bright sparks born to parents of limited means can access education that way. The private schools can then filter the wheat from the chaff.

But then what of the thickies from poor backgrounds. Like it or not, this is what the state sector is best for. Getting those kids to entry level education and skills for the menial jobs that the country needs. There is little or no point putting everyone into better quality schools, you can't polish a turd and society needs the intellectually challenged as much as the future nobel prize winners.

That sounds harsh but it's reality, so don't expect the idealists to agree. IMHO too many kids are now going thru university anyway, many getting meaningless degrees and finding getting jobs after graduation very difficult.

If only around 6% of pupils go to private schools and only a small percentage of them are entitled to scholarships and bursaries I’ll leave you to work out the significance of that. Plus, those who are genuinely poor and lacking in social confidence are very unlikely to put themselves into the situation of competing for a scholarship.

Your second paragraph sounds harsh because it is. It’s also demonstrably untrue and doesn’t take account of the variation in standards and resources offered by different state schools.

Inclined to agree about the ‘meaningless degrees’ aspect and I always thought it was a mistake to suddenly turn all polytechnics into universities and make everyone a student (partly at least, originally, to fiddle the youth unemployment figures). You miss the point though. IMO the problem was brought about by the kudos given to different forms of knowledge. Scientists, medics and classicists were probably at the top of the tree. Those with good reading and writing skills were held in higher esteem than those with practical skills, but what we need, imo, is the same resources being put into place for the future builders, plumbers, mechanics, electricians etc as are in place for the more academic high flyers.
A philosophy of, Academic equals good, Practical equals thick or bad, may have suited you and I during our days of education but it’s actually patronising nonsense.

[Andy_Faber]

I’m just reacting to your suggestion that it would be unfair to deprive hard working parents of the opportunity to invest in their children’s education.
I recognise your point but having spent the whole of my professional life working with relatively deprived children I think I may have a different perspective.
Life isn’t fair, if it was good people wouldn’t suffer some of the horrible things that happen seemingly indiscriminately, while b@stards sometimes seem to get away with everything. There seems to be little we can do about that, God’s/Fortune’s will and all that.

On the other hand, in my former professional life, I came across some atrocious parents, people who should never have been allowed to breed (though how we do that I don’t know) but I also came across some of the best parents I’ve ever met who, coincidentally were amongst the poorest. They just needed more support.
That’s where I feel things are unfair. There seems little we can do about genuine misfortune but we can square the circle to some extent where entitlement to health care, shelter and, most particularly in this discussion, educational opportunity are concerned, but however ‘hardworking’ and diligent some are they will still never be able to provide in the way you so admire.

Didn?t say I admired it rA, I was merely pointing out that folk other than the ?elite? can make it happen if they work bloody hard at it

GP explains how some of the young ?stars? who would otherwise be denied access to premium education are sifted out and bumped up via scholarship and bursary, and to be honest providing a ?leg up? other than by moving the kid to another school would just get them ostracised within their state school imo

The die is of course cast in most cases by the quality of, and even presence of, parents.

[swaledale]

For example the alumnus of the current prime minister, who was I believe a beneficiary of bursary funding. There are just under 1100 pupils there of which 150 have bursaries, scholarships etc. Thats lamost 15% of admissions.

The fees there for day pupils are about ? 9500 a term plus plenty of extras as a mate of mine can attest to having had a daughter there. Thats somewhat more expensive than Trent College and my alma mater as previously quoted. Bursaries can cover 110% of these fees.

I reckon 15% of your intake in a (medium high cost) private school aint a bad start to redressing the unfairness perceived by rA. And it didnt do 2TS any harm in terms of career progression.

So, you use a stupid set of initials, as in 2TS, to repeat an untruth promoted by right wing media? Second time you've done that recently, given your negative comment and false on Labour and immigration, I'm beginning to see why you were so defensive of the right wing press that prints this bollox, you seem to like repeating it and seemingly swallow the BS!

[Geoff Parkstone]

So, you use a stupid set of initials, as in 2TS, to repeat an untruth promoted by right wing media? Second time you've done that recently, given your negative comment and false on Labour and immigration, I'm beginning to see why you were so defensive of the right wing press that prints this bollox, you seem to like repeating it and seemingly swallow the BS!

That'll be it, damn I've been rumbled by 2SS

[Ram Pant]

This is where scholarships, bursaries etc come in. The bright sparks born to parents of limited means can access education that way. The private schools can then filter the wheat from the chaff.

But then what of the thickies from poor backgrounds. Like it or not, this is what the state sector is best for. Getting those kids to entry level education and skills for the menial jobs that the country needs. There is little or no point putting everyone into better quality schools, you can't polish a turd and society needs the intellectually challenged as much as the future nobel prize winners.

That sounds harsh but it's reality, so don't expect the idealists to agree. IMHO too many kids are now going thru university anyway, many getting meaningless degrees and finding getting jobs after graduation very difficult.

Ammy tells me that in NL, the system is different. The country's future needs are looked at. If we're going to need, for instance, extra teachers in 5 years time, more Uni places for teaching degrees are opened. Specifically, they are opened for the subjects forecast to have the shortage going forward. There has been a focus on German teaching courses over the past year as, although there's no shortage in secondary education today, within the next 5 years, very many German teachers will be retiring. Germany is NL's biggest trading partner...

Despite this forward thinking approach which sees students aiming at a particular job stream, it is estimated that, for around 25% of students graduating, the job they thought they wanted to do after graduating, has been made redundant by technological advances.

He'd like to know if it's the same in the UK.