OT - Manchester again.

[MadAmster]

This time it's, so far, 2 dead (plus the attacker) and 3 injured. Car driven into Jews at a synagogue. Driver got out and then attacked those he'd run over, with a knife. The attacker was shot dead by police.

No coincidence that it's Yom Kippur.

[SithHappens]

Awful and shocking.

[Geoff Parkstone]

God help the first person to suggest that it could be a pro Palestine assailant on social media. Starmer's paw patrol will have them banged up pronto.

Still at least the **** is dead before detonating anything (if the bomb vest suggestion is true) and causing more misery. Response team seem to have done a good job.

[ramAnag]

God help the first person to suggest that it could be a pro Palestine assailant on social media. Starmer's paw patrol will have them banged up pronto.

Still at least the **** is dead before detonating anything (if the bomb vest suggestion is true) and causing more misery. Response team seem to have done a good job.

Well it would seem, by implication, to be you and I’m guessing nothing has, or will, happen to you. I’ll even be the second if you like, because there’s nothing like stating the bleedin’ obvious as far as this being a pro Palestinian and anti Jewish hate crime is there?

The point surely is that it’s yet another tragedy involving, in all probability, innocent victims and fundamentalism…on both sides.

Labour/Starmer aren’t going to have anyone ‘banged up’ for saying such things, so let’s cut out this particular political point scoring and just mourn the ongoing situation while, as you more sensibly suggest, applauding those who prevented a greater tragedy.

[Andy_Faber]

Well it would seem, by implication, to be you and I’m guessing nothing has, or will, happen to you. I’ll even be the second if you like, because there’s nothing like stating the bleedin’ obvious as far as this being a pro Palestinian and anti Jewish hate crime is there?

The point surely is that it’s yet another tragedy involving, in all probability, innocent victims and fundamentalism…on both sides.

Labour/Starmer aren’t going to have anyone ‘banged up’ for saying such things, so let’s cut out this particular political point scoring and just mourn the ongoing situation while, as you more sensibly suggest, applauding those who prevented a greater tragedy.

What does ?on both sides? mean?

[ramAnag]

What does ?on both sides? mean?

Assuming you’re requesting a proper answer and won’t be satisfied with me running off saying ‘do your own research’, it means exactly what it suggests i.e. the vast majority of people, be they Jews, Muslims, whatever are moderate and follow their religions (extravagant fairy tales imo) in a passive way.

Unfortunately what has happened over the last (almost exactly) two years in Israel/Gaza has fuelled the hatred that already existed between the two groups.

Who started it and even when it started has almost become irrelevant. The fact is that if you’re Jewish and know of friends or relatives etc who were murdered or taken hostage on that terrible day in 2023 you’re going to feel hatred towards those responsible and if you’re a Palestinian who has been or knows of those who have been horribly mistreated by the Jewish establishment/armed forces either before or since 7/10/23 then equally you’re going to feel massive resentment.

What I imagine we saw in Manchester yesterday was a crazed individual (terrorist) acting out what he (wrongly) saw as his revenge against the nearest Jewish community, but with the mention of terrorism, personally I find it difficult to distinguish some of the actions by Israeli troops against children in Gaza as anything other than terrorism, albeit state sanctioned.

So religion again. Fundamentalist on the part of yesterday’s perpetrator and on the part of the Israeli hierarchy seems to me to be the cause and the innocent seem to me again to be the victims. Where and how it eventually ends is the question.

[Geoff Parkstone]

So the police and the home secretary have asked that the pro Palestine Action protests in London tomorrow be psotponed for a week to ensure the event can be properly policed and as an act of respect for the victims in Manchester. This would appear to have been rejected and the protests go ahead at time of writing. Quite extraordinarily callous.

It would be a huge shame if a car were to drive into the protestors who may be without a full police escort due to higher prioritiesthat they need to resource but, as they say, you cant fix stupid.

Six months ago I was on balance pro palestine. The continued protests here caused me to develop Palestine fatigue and feel more in the "I dont give a ****, they deserve each other" camp. After yesterday (although Ive yet to see any evidence that this attack was directly linked) my feeling is more akin to ban all protests as inflammatory, anti semitic and encouraging attacka such as we have seen. Pull the flags down as they symbolise hatred. yesterday has lost Palestine an ally - OK its just me but there surely must be many more individuals who are now heartily sick of the whole protest movement here which (if it is linked) have resulted in the mindless death of 3 british citizens - yes I include the assailant in that number as I'm assuming he has been radicalised along the way..

[Andy_Faber]

Assuming you’re requesting a proper answer and won’t be satisfied with me running off saying ‘do your own research’, it means exactly what it suggests i.e. the vast majority of people, be they Jews, Muslims, whatever are moderate and follow their religions (extravagant fairy tales imo) in a passive way.

Unfortunately what has happened over the last (almost exactly) two years in Israel/Gaza has fuelled the hatred that already existed between the two groups.

Who started it and even when it started has almost become irrelevant. The fact is that if you’re Jewish and know of friends or relatives etc who were murdered or taken hostage on that terrible day in 2023 you’re going to feel hatred towards those responsible and if you’re a Palestinian who has been or knows of those who have been horribly mistreated by the Jewish establishment/armed forces either before or since 7/10/23 then equally you’re going to feel massive resentment.

What I imagine we saw in Manchester yesterday was a crazed individual (terrorist) acting out what he (wrongly) saw as his revenge against the nearest Jewish community, but with the mention of terrorism, personally I find it difficult to distinguish some of the actions by Israeli troops against children in Gaza as anything other than terrorism, albeit state sanctioned.

So religion again. Fundamentalist on the part of yesterday’s perpetrator and on the part of the Israeli hierarchy seems to me to be the cause and the innocent seem to me again to be the victims. Where and how it eventually ends is the question.

I agree with most of that, not even arguing against your rejection of religion. What I (and millions) would counter is you?re not comparing like with like. The Israel / Hamas conflict is an overseas event, Yesterday?s atrocity is a reflection of a very one-sided picture in the UK - put it another way, when did a Jew last carry out such an act on British soil? GPs point about ?fatigue? is a good one, it?s not just GP that?s seeing beyond the flags to the extremism of lack of respect for the dead etc.

[ramAnag]

I agree with most of that, not even arguing against your rejection of religion. What I (and millions) would counter is you?re not comparing like with like. The Israel / Hamas conflict is an overseas event, Yesterday?s atrocity is a reflection of a very one-sided picture in the UK - put it another way, when did a Jew last carry out such an act on British soil? GPs point about ?fatigue? is a good one, it?s not just GP that?s seeing beyond the flags to the extremism of lack of respect for the dead etc.

Which is all well and good, not exactly how I see it but you’d expect that and I can see the point you and Rog are now making.

On the other hand that isn’t what my original reply was referencing…i.e. no sooner had the incident been reported than GP had jumped on the anti-Starmer bandwagon claiming that anyone suggesting any possible anti-Palestinian line could expect to be ‘banged up’ by Starmer’s thought police.

That was nonsense. As you say it is an ‘overseas event’ which Starmer has no control over. The man has a Jewish wife FGS. What happens in Israel/Gaza he is not responsible for. The actions of one man, or perhaps a group of four people, in Manchester yesterday he has little control over other than, perhaps, to try and ensure that the security services were well equipped enough to act as competently as they seemingly did.

P.S. I don’t ‘reject religion’. Just wish they’d all stop fighting about it. I respect religion and its allegorical power. I also believe in each to their own and think it’s a pity those more committed to individual religions don’t appear to feel the same.

[Andy_Faber]

Which is all well and good, not exactly how I see it but you’d expect that and I can see the point you and Rog are now making.

On the other hand that isn’t what my original reply was referencing…i.e. no sooner had the incident been reported than GP had jumped on the anti-Starmer bandwagon claiming that anyone suggesting any possible anti-Palestinian line could expect to be ‘banged up’ by Starmer’s thought police.

That was nonsense. As you say it is an ‘overseas event’ which Starmer has no control over. The man has a Jewish wife FGS. What happens in Israel/Gaza he is not responsible for. The actions of one man, or perhaps a group of four people, in Manchester yesterday he has little control over other than, perhaps, to try and ensure that the security services were well equipped enough to act as competently as they seemingly did.

P.S. I don’t ‘reject religion’. Just wish they’d all stop fighting about it. I respect religion and its allegorical power. I also believe in each to their own and think it’s a pity those more committed to individual religions don’t appear to feel the same.

I won?t speak for GP but that kind of response is a reflection IMO of some of the dafter/more sinister (depending on your pov) activities of HM Constabulary lately (and I don?t mean Lucy Collins) which has started to look suspiciously like 1984 come to life. Any association with Starmer is, IMO again, a reflection of the fact that he?s /his govt is thoroughly disliked (whatever the reason, 22 mill black hole, 14 years of incompetence blah blah). I go back to the point though that in UK, which is most people?s focus, we don?t see many Jewish acts of terror

Clarification re religion understood, but with respect to your opinion, using a heavy metal analogy, you are up in row Z seated not down in the mosh pit and it?s a whole different story down there

[swaledale]

So the police and the home secretary have asked that the pro Palestine Action protests in London tomorrow be psotponed for a week to ensure the event can be properly policed and as an act of respect for the victims in Manchester. This would appear to have been rejected and the protests go ahead at time of writing. Quite extraordinarily callous.

It would be a huge shame if a car were to drive into the protestors who may be without a full police escort due to higher prioritiesthat they need to resource but, as they say, you cant fix stupid.

Six months ago I was on balance pro palestine. The continued protests here caused me to develop Palestine fatigue and feel more in the "I dont give a ****, they deserve each other" camp. After yesterday (although Ive yet to see any evidence that this attack was directly linked) my feeling is more akin to ban all protests as inflammatory, anti semitic and encouraging attacka such as we have seen. Pull the flags down as they symbolise hatred. yesterday has lost Palestine an ally - OK its just me but there surely must be many more individuals who are now heartily sick of the whole protest movement here which (if it is linked) have resulted in the mindless death of 3 british citizens - yes I include the assailant in that number as I'm assuming he has been radicalised along the way..

Rather simplistic in my view. Individuals have and will continue for whatever reason, bizarre thoughts they have in their head carry out random acts of violence. Whether it be the guy who killed Kirk, the young (white) man in Plymouth who shot his mother or yesterdays tragic killings.

Its a stretch to attribute such acts to protests and a stretch to describe all protests as inflammatory or indeed as radicalising. Whereas the link to politicians of all political persuasion and their words and actions is much more clear cut. As indeed is the role of social media, with extreme philosophies and incitement to violence as a way of resolving matters having been proven to radicalise people into extreme acts of violence.

So your heartily sick of protests, a democratic way of showing dissent with what's happening with a government or governments? Yet so many of your hard won freedoms and rights wouldn't have been achieved without them!

Or are you heartily sick of being reminded that governments including ours have stood by whilst a nation state, formed from people who were subject to ethnic cleansing and unspeakable horrors in the last war are now effectively committing genocide on largely innocent civilians, including women and children?

I don't disagree that it would be courtesy and common sense to have postponed the prop Palestinian march but why the decision of the organisers of that march, should mean Palestine has lost an ally is frankly strange thinking.

It is the case that one can condemn and disavow the perpetrator of the killings yesterday or indeed anyone who encourages, facilitates and commits such atrocities and at the same time recognise that what Israel is doing in Gaza, with a death toll of 60,000+ is unacceptable and against International law.

It is also the case that the actions of Israeli government and Trump in ignoring International law with their actions in Doha and against a supposed Venezuelan drug boat together with Uk politicians like Farage who urge ignoring human rights laws, will encourage other states and indeed individuals to act in a similar way, leading to a complete breakdown of international rules based behaviour, which has largely stopped significant conflicts.

[swaledale]

I'd question the phrase, Starmer and his government are thoroughly disliked, it might be true amongst the people you mix with and indeed social media might give that impression, such is the nature of the algorithms that push such material to the fore.

That narrative is certainly being pushed by the right wing and supposedly not so right wing mainstream media, with relatively few organisations giving a measured critique of Starmer and his government, but then that's the nature of news today.

But even on the basis of the fatuous opinion polls constantly published, over 30% still support Labour and given that most governments get in with under 40% of voters supporting them, that's far from a thoroughly disliked government.

But I guess if your blinkered, then such nuances as facts and reality are ignored in favour of what FB tells you?

[swaledale]

Which is all well and good, not exactly how I see it but you’d expect that and I can see the point you and Rog are now making.

On the other hand that isn’t what my original reply was referencing…i.e. no sooner had the incident been reported than GP had jumped on the anti-Starmer bandwagon claiming that anyone suggesting any possible anti-Palestinian line could expect to be ‘banged up’ by Starmer’s thought police.

That was nonsense. As you say it is an ‘overseas event’ which Starmer has no control over. The man has a Jewish wife FGS. What happens in Israel/Gaza he is not responsible for. The actions of one man, or perhaps a group of four people, in Manchester yesterday he has little control over other than, perhaps, to try and ensure that the security services were well equipped enough to act as competently as they seemingly did.

P.S. I don’t ‘reject religion’. Just wish they’d all stop fighting about it. I respect religion and its allegorical power. I also believe in each to their own and think it’s a pity those more committed to individual religions don’t appear to feel the same.

I do think in these cases Palestine and indeed with Trump's fundamentalists, religion is used as a cover. What is actually happening here is political ideology, dressed up as religious differences and often shamefully used by politicians and indeed some religious leaders to further that ideology. Removing religion from the equation, would not alter the fact that the human race likes power and especially power over other humans, whether that be by book, bullet or the ballot box.

[ramAnag]

I won?t speak for GP but that kind of response is a reflection IMO of some of the dafter/more sinister (depending on your pov) activities of HM Constabulary lately (and I don?t mean Lucy Collins) which has started to look suspiciously like 1984 come to life. Any association with Starmer is, IMO again, a reflection of the fact that he?s /his govt is thoroughly disliked (whatever the reason, 22 mill black hole, 14 years of incompetence blah blah). I go back to the point though that in UK, which is most people?s focus, we don?t see many Jewish acts of terror

Clarification re religion understood, but with respect to your opinion, using a heavy metal analogy, you are up in row Z seated not down in the mosh pit and it?s a whole different story down there

I imagine you’re talking of Lucy Connolly (not Collins) and we’ve been down this road before. It’s my opinion that someone who actively encourages what she did deserves what she got. Nothing remotely like ‘1984’.

Are you suggesting that her behaviour and what she advocated/incited was acceptable? Are you suggesting there was no ‘black hole’ inherited by Labour last year or that, following the banking crisis there wasn’t 14 years of Government incompetence? Five PM’s in that period might suggest otherwise.

If you are we disagree, but I’m really not sure of your point and I’m sorry but I don’t really understand your Row Z/mosh pit analogy regarding religion either.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Re Lucy C, to make it easier, I don't defend her inflammatory rantings but I feel the punishment was not altogether proportionate. However that's past history now, so really no point debating her.

But how is her case any different to, say, radical Imams calling for followers to rise up and slay the infidel? I'm sure in the fullness of time Jihad al Shami will be shown to have been radicalised by one or more individuals and causes. What will happen to his mentors who could arguably be said to have successfully achieved what the likes of Lucy C failed to do. Those that influenced Jihad to act how he did are equally culpable for yesterday's actual murders - but will they face the weight of the law? We will see but I'm not putting money on it.

Jihad was just a pawn in a sinister game played by people far higher up the food chain - not excusing his actions but suggesting there are bigger wider issue in play here that will likely be placed under the carpet.

And so the process will continue and these attacks will not be isolated. Those who instigate them will remain in the shadows while the footsoldiers are sacrificed. There's always another volunteer to be persuaded and (based on performances so far) those "teachers" (no disrespect rA) will remain outside prosecution/deportation/whatever as a disruptive scar on our society, hell bent on ensuring that a harmonious diverse society will never happen. Muslim Farages if you will.

Yet Lucy C served her time, achieved nothing and noone will remember her name by this time next year (Andy's forgotten it already!).

The law punishes the stupid failures, they are easy targets, yet the real villains of this piece go undetected or unchallenged.

Hate to use the expression 2 tier justice (that epithet isn't Starmer's alone) it's more of a global challenge.