Goodwin Out?

[A. J]

I understand folk wanting to keep Jim for stability but I feel we could and should be seeing better results.
For me there's only 2 reasons why Jim is not getting the results.
He's either unable to suss out a formation that suits the players he has, in which case he's letting them and us down.
Or he is happy to take the pay, bend over and take whatever Ogren gives him.
In which case he's letting us and himself down.
Either way he is too weak to manage a club where supporters should have higher expectations than what is being delivered.

[TerryTheTerror]

You make it sound like it's one or the other but the reality is it's much more nuanced than that.

[A. J]

I agree, it could be both

[Stoke_Arab]

I agree, it could be both

Successful football teams are not always the teams who have bought the most expensive players. Of course, usually they are. You only have to look at the top leagues almost always dominated by the richest clubs., Real, Barca, Bayern, PSG, Glasgow 2 etc

But when these giants have been challenged there is usually a combination of things that cause it.

A clever coach who assembles a side that is better than the sum of it's parts.
A coach who understands tactics and formations and how to get the best out of them. Who can forget Leicesters 442 with Vardy scoring for fun. Or Clough's Forest, a team of nobodies that Clough moulded into European Cup Winners?
A coach that improves players and gets the team playing fluid attacking football - that's the thing common to all these successes.

Leicester
Atalanta
Motherwell (to a lesser extent)
Bodo Glimt
Nottingham Forest
Dundee United

There's plenty examples, these are just off the top of my head.

Unfortunately we have a manager who is a good club manager but has proved in his time with us that he doesn't improve players and can't coach an identifiable style, or fluid passing play. We've shown it in fleeting patches but never consistently over a run of games.

The problem with change is risk. You can either get a better coach like Motherwell did, or you can get a Czaba that relegated you in no time.
For now I'm pretty sure the board won't throw the dice and unless St Mirren came calling Jim Goodwin will be in the home dugout come August.

[Arabdownsouth]

Successful football teams are not always the teams who have bought the most expensive players. Of course, usually they are. You only have to look at the top leagues almost always dominated by the richest clubs., Real, Barca, Bayern, PSG, Glasgow 2 etc

But when these giants have been challenged there is usually a combination of things that cause it.

A clever coach who assembles a side that is better than the sum of it's parts.
A coach who understands tactics and formations and how to get the best out of them. Who can forget Leicesters 442 with Vardy scoring for fun. Or Clough's Forest, a team of nobodies that Clough moulded into European Cup Winners?
A coach that improves players and gets the team playing fluid attacking football - that's the thing common to all these successes.

Leicester
Atalanta
Motherwell (to a lesser extent)
Bodo Glimt
Nottingham Forest
Dundee United

There's plenty examples, these are just off the top of my head.

Unfortunately we have a manager who is a good club manager but has proved in his time with us that he doesn't improve players and can't coach an identifiable style, or fluid passing play. We've shown it in fleeting patches but never consistently over a run of games.

The problem with change is risk. You can either get a better coach like Motherwell did, or you can get a Czaba that relegated you in no time.
For now I'm pretty sure the board won't throw the dice and unless St Mirren came calling Jim Goodwin will be in the home dugout come August.

Leicester did have a billionaire owner though so I personally wouldn't include them in that list, I certainly wouldn't compare them to our achievements under Jim McLean

[LSArab]

These are all once in a generation achievements

Even then Motherwell are 4th - same place as we got in our first season back last year

We all want what?s best for the club but holding managers to levels that are very rarely achieved and sacking them for not doing it every year is not the best way. We have seen it in our last 10 years

We are 7th despite loads of unlucky moments this year including a keeper punching ball in the net and players making mad costly errors like Ross G at the weekend

The team has a lot of potential and I do feel JG is building the club up

You can see that over his 3 years - when he came in we were a shambles and now it feels like the pieces are coming together.

All the example like United, Forest, Leicester took time

[Arabdownsouth]

These are all once in a generation achievements

Even then Motherwell are 4th - same place as we got in our first season back last year

We all want what?s best for the club but holding managers to levels that are very rarely achieved and sacking them for not doing it every year is not the best way. We have seen it in our last 10 years

We are 7th despite loads of unlucky moments this year including a keeper punching ball in the net and players making mad costly errors like Ross G at the weekend

The team has a lot of potential and I do feel JG is building the club up

You can see that over his 3 years - when he came in we were a shambles and now it feels like the pieces are coming together.

All the example like United, Forest, Leicester took time

We'll have another massive squad rebuild in the summer, I'm really not sure how you're seeing the pieces coming together at all.
Goodwin is absolutely rigid and will not open up his mind to alternative systems no matter how bad our defence has been. He's negative and as a result our team has a loser mentality which is why we keep bottling games. A better manager would be getting far more out of this squad and would have at the very least tried different formations.

[Stoke_Arab]

These are all once in a generation achievements

Even then Motherwell are 4th - same place as we got in our first season back last year

We all want what?s best for the club but holding managers to levels that are very rarely achieved and sacking them for not doing it every year is not the best way. We have seen it in our last 10 years

We are 7th despite loads of unlucky moments this year including a keeper punching ball in the net and players making mad costly errors like Ross G at the weekend

The team has a lot of potential and I do feel JG is building the club up

You can see that over his 3 years - when he came in we were a shambles and now it feels like the pieces are coming together.

All the example like United, Forest, Leicester took time

You feel the pieces are coming together? Can you explain that to me please? For context, you think Ryan Strain is a good player.

I don't see any evidence at all of any Dundee United player improving? Most players have regressed under Jim.

Look at Falkirk under McGlynn, a well coached team with players that have improved year on year. Unfortunately there is no sign that we have improved or will improve.

[LSArab]

We'll have another massive squad rebuild in the summer, I'm really not sure how you're seeing the pieces coming together at all.
Goodwin is absolutely rigid and will not open up his mind to alternative systems no matter how bad our defence has been. He's negative and as a result our team has a loser mentality which is why we keep bottling games. A better manager would be getting far more out of this squad and would have at the very least tried different formations.

But he is not rigid - he often changes formation during the match and he changes formations depending on our opponents

It?s not always 3-4-3 and it wasn?t last season when it was mostly 3-5-2

If we sack the manager every time not getting top 6 or Europe I don?t think that is going to help

JG is a good manager and his record shows that

[Arabdownsouth]

But he is not rigid - he often changes formation during the match and he changes formations depending on our opponents

It?s not always 3-4-3 and it wasn?t last season when it was mostly 3-5-2

If we sack the manager every time not getting top 6 or Europe I don?t think that is going to help

JG is a good manager and his record shows that

Its his defence thats been the major issue and it's the 3 at the back that hes rigid with. He changes through the games because he repeatedly gets it wrong from the start. Look if you're happy with the mediocrity and constant disappointment then fine and you're entitled to that. But there are others who aren't content to see us being outdone by teams such as Falkirk and Motherwell. Maybe it'll take another relegation to convince some folk, and I can see next season being worse than this one under Jim.

Let me just ask you one simple question. Is the 3 at the back working in your opinion?

[Arabs4ever]

But he is not rigid - he often changes formation during the match and he changes formations depending on our opponents

It?s not always 3-4-3 and it wasn?t last season when it was mostly 3-5-2

If we sack the manager every time not getting top 6 or Europe I don?t think that is going to help

JG is a good manager and his record shows that

Tommy McLean set his stall out. However if what he put out wasn't working he would make changes asap. The following week he would certainly not entertain the same starting formation. Whereas oor Jim is hellbent and fixated, learning the square root of phuck all. If he took the shackles off and went at the opposition from the first second he wouldn't be feeling the heat. As it is he deserves everything coming his way as it is the height of arrogance from him.

[LSArab]

Its his defence thats been the major issue and it's the 3 at the back that hes rigid with. He changes through the games because he repeatedly gets it wrong from the start. Look if you're happy with the mediocrity and constant disappointment then fine and you're entitled to that. But there are others who aren't content to see us being outdone by teams such as Falkirk and Motherwell. Maybe it'll take another relegation to convince some folk, and I can see next season being worse than this one under Jim.

Let me just ask you one simple question. Is the 3 at the back working in your opinion?

It worked last season when we came 4th in our first season back

I want the club to outperform where we should be in the league and build long term success

Before our championship season people on here were predicting 3rd / 4th as a realistic outcome.

JG has done well with us and improved the state of the club.

It?s being said we should be doing what Leicester did when they won the league. That was an absolute miracle season - I know the situation there well 5,000 to 1.

So if we are not the exceptional outperformer each season we sack the manager

That?s not how to get long term success

It wouldn?t have worked for wee Jim either. Rome is not built in a day

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and I respect that.

I?m not going to change mine and I?m firmly behind JG as the best man to take United forward

[Arabdownsouth]

It worked last season when we came 4th in our first season back

I want the club to outperform where we should be in the league and build long term success

Before our championship season people on here were predicting 3rd / 4th as a realistic outcome.

JG has done well with us and improved the state of the club.

It?s being said we should be doing what Leicester did when they won the league. That was an absolute miracle season - I know the situation there well 5,000 to 1.

So if we are not the exceptional outperformer each season we sack the manager

That?s not how to get long term success

It wouldn?t have worked for wee Jim either. Rome is not built in a day

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and I respect that.

I?m not going to change mine and I?m firmly behind JG as the best man to take United forward

You didn't answer the question

Also I dont think anyone has said we need to emulate Leicester

[Stoke_Arab]

It worked last season when we came 4th in our first season back

I want the club to outperform where we should be in the league and build long term success

Before our championship season people on here were predicting 3rd / 4th as a realistic outcome.

JG has done well with us and improved the state of the club.

It?s being said we should be doing what Leicester did when they won the league. That was an absolute miracle season - I know the situation there well 5,000 to 1.

So if we are not the exceptional outperformer each season we sack the manager

That?s not how to get long term success

It wouldn?t have worked for wee Jim either. Rome is not built in a day

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and I respect that.

I?m not going to change mine and I?m firmly behind JG as the best man to take United forward

It seems impossible to debate logically with you. I never said I was expecting us to win the title or even a cup. The reason I mentioned these teams is that they challenged in their leagues because they were ordinary players WELL COACHED by their manager, played GOOD FOOTBALL, and were BETTER THAN THE SUM OF THEIR PARTS.

Unfortunately much as I would like Jim to succeed with us there is currently no evidence that he can set up a side, motivate players, impose tactics from the first whistle and coach the players how to keep the ball and create chances from passing open play.

United fans have no Glasgow style entitlement, they will accept 7th if they are seeing good attacking football. But the majority wont accept what we've seen this season.

[Arabdownsouth]

Also not sure why the Leicester thing would be 5000-1 when they had a billionaire owner?