O/T:- ⚠️Impressed with the leadership [The UK Party Politics Thread]

[MarcusCole]

I 100% agree with this, however sadly people want to be spoon fed and doing your own research has been politicised, even in this thread we've been called left wing for being educated.

That in itself is hilarious, it shows that one side of the spectrum truly depends on ignorance to work.

I disagree, both extremes rely on ignorance. You see it from posters on here like BFP who will only get is news from media outlets that confirm his views and seem to be approved by his Cohorts and you also get it from the right that state everything is a conspiracy theory.

The term far Right is now thrown around and seems to mean anyone that disagrees with the establishment position. Which is odd when considering the original terms about right and left wing are and this comes from Copilot so not my words:

The political terms ?right? and ?left? wing originated during the French Revolution in 1789. Members of the French National Assembly were divided over how much power King Louis XVI should have. Those who supported the king and wanted to maintain traditional structures sat on the right side of the assembly, while those who opposed the king and sought more radical changes sat on the left.


Those who are now being called far right are calling for those in positions of power to be held to account if they had any involvement in the cover up and there is more than enough evidence to show a cover up is more likely than not.

You know who has been calling people far right for wanting free speech, wanting equality before the law and calling for an enquiry? Keir Starmer. it seems that everyone that disagrees with him on those positions is far right.

As for the Tories, they are a bunch of hypocrites, They had plenty of time to start an enquiry into this, when they did have on it was a cut down one that deliberately avoided looking into the culpability of those in positions of authority.

There is nothing stopping the Government from implementing the findings of the last enquiry while setting up another to look into the areas that it did not investigate. This isn't an either / or situation they are more than capable of doing both.

[Elite_Pie]

Those who are now being called far right are calling for those in positions of power to be held to account if they had any involvement in the cover up and there is more than enough evidence to show a cover up is more likely than not.

That's complete rubbish. Right from the start I've been one of those "calling for those in positions of power to be held to account if they had any involvement in the cover up". Ever since the grooming scandal became news I've said many times that anyone knowingly covering up the abuse of young girls should be behind bars with the perpetrators. Those who are being called far right are the ones deliberately spreading lies and misinformation to inflame the situation.

[BigFatPie]

I’m sorry that people are triggered by what they see as unfair use of the term *far right*. Unfortunately its difficult to avoid when theres been a far right president elected in the US, theres a far right tech billionaire trying to bring down the UK government with the support of the Conservative Party, there are far right criminals being locked up for incitement to murder, there were far right riots during the summer, there are far right activists threatening to murder a female Labour mp (again), and theres a far right representative acting as shadow justice secretary.


If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, well Im sure even the dimmest posters know the rest.

There was this fantastic piece posted ironically on Twitter yesterday. Im pretty sure the people who need to read it probably wont, but I think it’s worth sharing part of it nevertheless.

The past few days have seen a new low in British politics, where one of the most sensitive and most troubling crimes - child abuse - has been politicised by two parties, the Conservatives and Reform

Any person with an iota of common decency will acknowledge that child abuse, in any of its forms, by whoever the perpetrators are, is utterly abhorrent

And all of us can agree that those guilty of abusing children should have the most severe sentence our courts can deliver

That the authorities in some places, be they in local councils, the police, or any other institution, made the active choice to cover up child abuse, is sickening, and every person responsible for this ought to be held to account

When you search for ‘grooming gangs’ in Hansard from 2010 to end 2024, there are 183 results.

There’s an entry from Lee Anderson (2021) saying grooming gangs should be locked up. - I don’t agree with Anderson on many things, but on this I do agree with him

But that’s it

Not a single Conservative MP who is now actively vocal in recent days used the phrase ‘grooming gangs’ in parliament. That's how much they actually cared about the subject

And sadly, it’s even worse than that, one Conservative MP, Sajid Javid, when he was Home Secretary, stripped a British girl who had been groomed online by an organised gang of terrorists, of her citizenship

Instead of going after the groomers, Javid went after the victim of the groomers, Shamima Begum

If she is indeed guilty of any crimes, she ought to be serving a prison sentence in our country, along with whatever professional services are required to address the fact that she was groomed, along with the subsequent trauma of finding herself subjected to the whims of womanising terrorists overseas

There's a desperation in the calls from Conservative/Reform MPs, it's a faux anger, because instead of calling to enact the 20 recommendations from the Alexis Jay's Inquiry, which took 7 years, they're focused on calling for another inquiry instead

[HeroPie1862]

I disagree, both extremes rely on ignorance. You see it from posters on here like BFP who will only get is news from media outlets that confirm his views and seem to be approved by his Cohorts and you also get it from the right that state everything is a conspiracy theory.

The term far Right is now thrown around and seems to mean anyone that disagrees with the establishment position. Which is odd when considering the original terms about right and left wing are and this comes from Copilot so not my words:

The political terms ?right? and ?left? wing originated during the French Revolution in 1789. Members of the French National Assembly were divided over how much power King Louis XVI should have. Those who supported the king and wanted to maintain traditional structures sat on the right side of the assembly, while those who opposed the king and sought more radical changes sat on the left.


Those who are now being called far right are calling for those in positions of power to be held to account if they had any involvement in the cover up and there is more than enough evidence to show a cover up is more likely than not.

You know who has been calling people far right for wanting free speech, wanting equality before the law and calling for an enquiry? Keir Starmer. it seems that everyone that disagrees with him on those positions is far right.

As for the Tories, they are a bunch of hypocrites, They had plenty of time to start an enquiry into this, when they did have on it was a cut down one that deliberately avoided looking into the culpability of those in positions of authority.

There is nothing stopping the Government from implementing the findings of the last enquiry while setting up another to look into the areas that it did not investigate. This isn't an either / or situation they are more than capable of doing both.

So you agree with the initial point made that both sides are pretty difficult to prove.

There's a difference though, because free speech is something everyone should have, but nobody should ever feel comfortable going out of their way to insult others - that's just being a ****.

And free speech means you have to accept that others will call out your bad takes, which is what happens - however you then get defensive saying you aren't allowed free speech... Which isn't the case, it's called being held accountable.

I also never said I'm left or right wing, however there's an assumption based on me wanting people to be treated with respect and dignity.

... That says all it has to really.

Edit:

I?m sorry that people are triggered by what they see as unfair use of the term *far right*. Unfortunately its difficult to avoid when theres been a far right president elected in the US, theres a far right tech billionaire trying to bring down the UK government with the support of the Conservative Party, there are far right criminals being locked up for incitement to murder, there were far right riots during the summer, there are far right activists threatening to murder a female Labour mp (again), and theres a far right representative acting as shadow justice secretary.


If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, well Im sure even the dimmest posters know the rest.

There was this fantastic piece posted ironically on Twitter yesterday. Im pretty sure the people who need to read it probably wont, but I think it?s worth sharing part of it nevertheless.

The past few days have seen a new low in British politics, where one of the most sensitive and most troubling crimes - child abuse - has been politicised by two parties, the Conservatives and Reform

Any person with an iota of common decency will acknowledge that child abuse, in any of its forms, by whoever the perpetrators are, is utterly abhorrent

And all of us can agree that those guilty of abusing children should have the most severe sentence our courts can deliver

That the authorities in some places, be they in local councils, the police, or any other institution, made the active choice to cover up child abuse, is sickening, and every person responsible for this ought to be held to account

When you search for ?grooming gangs? in Hansard from 2010 to end 2024, there are 183 results.

There?s an entry from Lee Anderson (2021) saying grooming gangs should be locked up. - I don?t agree with Anderson on many things, but on this I do agree with him

But that?s it

Not a single Conservative MP who is now actively vocal in recent days used the phrase ?grooming gangs? in parliament. That's how much they actually cared about the subject

And sadly, it?s even worse than that, one Conservative MP, Sajid Javid, when he was Home Secretary, stripped a British girl who had been groomed online by an organised gang of terrorists, of her citizenship

Instead of going after the groomers, Javid went after the victim of the groomers, Shamima Begum

If she is indeed guilty of any crimes, she ought to be serving a prison sentence in our country, along with whatever professional services are required to address the fact that she was groomed, along with the subsequent trauma of finding herself subjected to the whims of womanising terrorists overseas

There's a desperation in the calls from Conservative/Reform MPs, it's a faux anger, because instead of calling to enact the 20 recommendations from the Alexis Jay's Inquiry, which took 7 years, they're focused on calling for another inquiry instead

Well said, it's sad that children and women often get politicised by the right, but only when it suits their agendas

Edit 2: Nick Robinson absolutely slaughtered Robert Jenrick on this, who came across like a self-serving populist with no actual moral compass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctWyu8FOnbs

[MarcusCole]

So you agree with the initial point made that both sides are pretty difficult to prove.

There's a difference though, because free speech is something everyone should have, but nobody should ever feel comfortable going out of their way to insult others - that's just being a ****.

And free speech means you have to accept that others will call out your bad takes, which is what happens - however you then get defensive saying you aren't allowed free speech... Which isn't the case, it's called being held accountable.

I also never said I'm left or right wing, however there's an assumption based on me wanting people to be treated with respect and dignity.

... That says all it has to really.

I agree with you that going out of your way to insult people is just being a **** although I have to take an educated guess about which word was being obscured. But Lord Justice Sedley said, ?Free speech includes not only the inoffensive but the irritating, the contentious, the eccentric, the heretical, the unwelcome and the provocative?. Just because someone vehemently disagree with what you say does not give them right to be silenced, often someone will claim what has been offensive when it has in fact just been an uncomfortable truth.

Recently the in vogue is to call anyone that is pointing out inconvenient truths Far Right.

Well said, it's sad that children and women often get politicised by the right, but only when it suits their agendas

Edit 2: Nick Robinson absolutely slaughtered Robert Jenrick on this, who came across like a self-serving populist with no actual moral compass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctWyu8FOnbs

The left is also politicising the issue and have done for years.

As mentioned, don't like the Tories and will never trust them, but labour to me are worse. CS Lewis put it best - "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron?s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"To me the Tories are the Robber Barons and Labour the the Busybodies.

On Trump, I can't see how he is Far Right. Most of the positions he holds were Democrat positions less than 20 years ago, but I do consider him Narcissistic, Corrupt, Buffoonish, Boorish and not as bright as he thinks he is. But if I was American I probably would have voted for him as Biden / Harris were far far worse.

[Med Pie]

Depending exactly how you define it, I've lived in more countries than a lot of people have visited. I don't think there's anything about it that makes someone superior, but it can be an eye-opener and help put into context choices that are made (or sometimes, not even made) in your own society.

The "far right" being referred to is clearly the EDL and Stephen Christopher Yaxley-Lennon, as well as some of the more fascistic tendencies of Reform UK and remarkably, the near-full fash that Robert Jenrick has recently embraced. Many of my Tory friends are horrified by what their party now is (just as many Republican friends in the US have been over Trump).

I was also confused as to how anyone could say the Sturmabteilung were "the good Nazis" (because they killed Communists in the street?), but then I remembered Strasserism arguably inspired quite a lot of the National Front.

Sadly, you don't have to look far to find the far right.

He'd do well to fund an organisation that ceased to exist about ten years ago.

[keldsyke]

He'd do well to fund an organisation that ceased to exist about ten years ago.

They?ve bit told at least once in the past few days that it doesn?t exist anymore, but don?t let the truth get in the way of their agenda. It?s also funny that Labour has been riddled with anti-semitism and the hard left / commies / Pro Palestine mob have been harassing the Jewish communities in London, reminds me of Germany in the 1930?s but hey let?s forget about it!

[Mud Pie]

I also lived abroad for 7 years Mud, and it was initially a wonderful experience. But when i look back I cringe at my behaviour. For the first few years I just hung around with other expats frequenting expat hotspots around town. I was unaware of my white privilege which got me the job in the first place and i was very arrogant. Towards the end of my stay i was incredibly lonely.

Living in other countries absolutely broadens the mind and I'd recommend it to anyone who has the means for a year or two. But the main thing i took away from my experience was realising how thankful I am to be from Britain and how lucky I am to be able to live here. It really makes you appreciate what you have back home. All countries have their problems.

Everyone is different of course.

interesting post, KC! Sounds like you were able to make your investment pay off somewhat for you, even if not in the way you expected. Good for you, I'd say.

Feel sure there's a great book to be written about the NCFC diaspora - maybe an even better use of time than pouring hours and hours of our lives down the vapid time sink that is this thread (speaking to myself mostly, but also suggesting to others!).

Everyone is different - to a degree, imo. My experience has been that the venn circles are usually biggest in the middle, and that most people IRL! will be open to making positive connections given half a chance.

[bule1]

Staw poll:

1/ Has this thread been of any real use?

2/ Has anyone changed their outlook based upon the arguments/statement made here?

Think I can guess the answer to both

[Elite_Pie]

Staw poll:

1/ Has this thread been of any real use?

2/ Has anyone changed their outlook based upon the arguments/statement made here?

Think I can guess the answer to both

1/ Yes. It's let us know how certain posters think (whether right, left or centre).

2/ Probably not.

[OchPie]

He'd do well to fund an organisation that ceased to exist about ten years ago.

As an organisation it's dead. As a movement, far from it. Its supporters didn't suddenly all become compassionate conservatives, it just decentralised.

[keldsyke]

As an organisation it's dead. As a movement, far from it. Its supporters didn't suddenly all become compassionate conservatives, it just decentralised.

Thanks for clearing that up, that your comments are not based on fact but what you want to think is happening like Kent Magpie.

[The Dug Out]

I?m sorry that people are triggered by what they see as unfair use of the term *far right*. Unfortunately its difficult to avoid when theres been a far right president elected in the US, theres a far right tech billionaire trying to bring down the UK government with the support of the Conservative Party, there are far right criminals being locked up for incitement to murder, there were far right riots during the summer, there are far right activists threatening to murder a female Labour mp (again), and theres a far right representative acting as shadow justice secretary.


If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, well Im sure even the dimmest posters know the rest.

There was this fantastic piece posted ironically on Twitter yesterday. Im pretty sure the people who need to read it probably wont, but I think it?s worth sharing part of it nevertheless.

The past few days have seen a new low in British politics, where one of the most sensitive and most troubling crimes - child abuse - has been politicised by two parties, the Conservatives and Reform

Any person with an iota of common decency will acknowledge that child abuse, in any of its forms, by whoever the perpetrators are, is utterly abhorrent

And all of us can agree that those guilty of abusing children should have the most severe sentence our courts can deliver

That the authorities in some places, be they in local councils, the police, or any other institution, made the active choice to cover up child abuse, is sickening, and every person responsible for this ought to be held to account

When you search for ?grooming gangs? in Hansard from 2010 to end 2024, there are 183 results.

There?s an entry from Lee Anderson (2021) saying grooming gangs should be locked up. - I don?t agree with Anderson on many things, but on this I do agree with him

But that?s it

Not a single Conservative MP who is now actively vocal in recent days used the phrase ?grooming gangs? in parliament. That's how much they actually cared about the subject

And sadly, it?s even worse than that, one Conservative MP, Sajid Javid, when he was Home Secretary, stripped a British girl who had been groomed online by an organised gang of terrorists, of her citizenship

Instead of going after the groomers, Javid went after the victim of the groomers, Shamima Begum

If she is indeed guilty of any crimes, she ought to be serving a prison sentence in our country, along with whatever professional services are required to address the fact that she was groomed, along with the subsequent trauma of finding herself subjected to the whims of womanising terrorists overseas

There's a desperation in the calls from Conservative/Reform MPs, it's a faux anger, because instead of calling to enact the 20 recommendations from the Alexis Jay's Inquiry, which took 7 years, they're focused on calling for another inquiry instead

And sadly, it?s even worse than that, one Conservative MP, Sajid Javid, when he was Home Secretary, stripped a British girl who had been groomed online by an organised gang of terrorists, of her citizenshi


I presume you mean Shamimma Begum, which Javid was quite right to do so, strip her of British Citizenship, she was not in anyway an abused young girl who was raped on a systematic level by pakistani men in Great Britain she went on her own decision to Syria to join ISIS, what she did whilst she was an ISIS bride we will never know, she says she saw things, most peoplle who have more intelligance on this matter say she was complicit in attrocious butchering acts on people ISIS don't like. She should never be allowed to set foot in GB again, BUT, for the next few years we have a "government" that is hell bent on turning Britain into a muslim enclave, so she may be back.

Every person that is, or was, complicit in this, the greatest child abuse in our history, should be sought out and jailed.

[OchPie]

Thanks for clearing that up, that your comments are not based on fact but what you want to think is happening like Kent Magpie.

You're wrong, but that's ok.

[drillerpie]

If only you knew a single thing about me, eh?

A lot of what I stated there was directly from Stalins biography

Kotkin - Stalin, Paradoxes of Power 1878-1928

Kotkin - Stalin, Waiting for Hitler 1929-1941

A People's Tragedy - A History of the Russian Revolution

Edit: Feel free to read a book yourself, and your edit showed your ignorance.

Stephen Kotkin is tremendously informative on Russia. Decades of research in the Russian archives translating and analysing documents and he explains it all in such an accessible way. A lot of his talks are available on YouTube and I enjoy them hugely.

Just want to pick your brains on a couple of things though. I thought the mod to late twenties were the only time in Stalin's reign that there was anything approaching a 'liberal' policy, and early thirties onwards was the beginning of enforcement of collectivised agriculture and therefore severe repression and famine. I may be wrong but would be interested to know.

Second question is does 'Waiting for Hitler' get into Stalin's view of Nazism and fascism? I have a feeling I've read or heard (possibly from Kotkin) that according to record of Soviet government meetings Stalin didn't care too much about the rise of Hitler or Mussolini, he was happy to trade with both of them and he was perfectly happy for them to flourish as he thought they would accelerate the fall of capitalism, which was his main goal. Of course that changed when Hitler broke the pact and attacked him, but until self-defence became an issue he was far from an anti-fascist. Don't know how long ago you read these or if you still look at them but can your confirm or deny this?

By the way, if you're interested in the history of the Russian security apparatus I can recommend The Mitrokhin Archive. It's a bit of a slog at times but also very informative.