O/T:- ⚠️Impressed with the leadership [The UK Party Politics Thread]

[upthemaggies]

but we've done some cool stuff too, and we did just manage to avoid nuking ourselves into oblivion, so there's that.
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Did? We're arguably as close now to nuclear war than at any time in the last 40 years, with the same people banging on about climate change cheerleading us to the brink of actual oblivion in the here and now.
Yay for science.

Unfortunately, we've done some much meddling and damage, that the Earth can't take of itself in the sense of remaining the kind of place that will support the kind of life we want to live.
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It's not the purpose of the Earth to sustain an environment for humans. It would be the height of arrogance and entitlement to suggest otherwise. Every other species except for domesticated pets and those now reliant on town/city environments would conspire to get rid of us if they could.

We're an expression of this planet in a mere blink of its' eye. We're animals driven by basic animal instincts that just so happen to be able to talk **** to justify to ourselves the pointlessness of what we do and to convince others to go along with it. There's nothing to achieve other than realising your own ego is an illusion, then it all makes sense without some preacher or scientist trying and failing to bridge that gap with words or equations.

[drillerpie]

Did? We're arguably as close now to nuclear war than at any time in the last 40 years, with the same people banging on about climate change cheerleading us to the brink of actual oblivion in the here and now.
Yay for science.



It's not the purpose of the Earth to sustain an environment for humans. It would be the height of arrogance and entitlement to suggest otherwise. Every other species except for domesticated pets and those now reliant on town/city environments would conspire to get rid of us if they could.

We're an expression of this planet in a mere blink of its' eye. We're animals driven by basic animal instincts that just so happen to be able to talk **** to justify to ourselves the pointlessness of what we do and to convince others to go along with it. There's nothing to achieve other than realising your own ego is an illusion, then it all makes sense without some preacher or scientist trying and failing to bridge that gap with words or equations.

I don't think we are on the brink of nuclear oblivion at all. I think there are certain political forces (The United Russia party, and the MAGA wing of the Republican party) that have a lot to gain from making people think we are, and they are executing that plan quite successfully.

I expect this will build to a crescendo in November 2024, but that is probably for discussion on a different thread.

But if you are truly zen about human extinction, I'm not sure why you would care either way.

[Newish Pie]

Did? We're arguably as close now to nuclear war than at any time in the last 40 years, with the same people banging on about climate change cheerleading us to the brink of actual oblivion in the here and now.
Yay for science.



It's not the purpose of the Earth to sustain an environment for humans. It would be the height of arrogance and entitlement to suggest otherwise. Every other species except for domesticated pets and those now reliant on town/city environments would conspire to get rid of us if they could.

We're an expression of this planet in a mere blink of its' eye. We're animals driven by basic animal instincts that just so happen to be able to talk **** to justify to ourselves the pointlessness of what we do and to convince others to go along with it. There's nothing to achieve other than realising your own ego is an illusion, then it all makes sense without some preacher or scientist trying and failing to bridge that gap with words or equations.

You've lost me again. The people calling for action on climate change tend not to be apologists for Putin. In fact, it's rather the opposite... although there's no obvious correlation between the two, those who tend to be pro-Putin tend more towards climate change denialism. Perhaps it's the conspiratorial mindset.

I agree that it would be arrogant and entitled to claim that the purpose of the Earth is to sustain an environment for humans. I don't think that and didn't say that. This tends to be a religious view - that God made the Earth and put us in charge - that I don't share. However, it is true that we're the product of our planet, which has shaped our evolution at every turn.

As a species, we carry a lot with us from our deep evolutionary past... we're not evolved for our modern world and that's causing problems. But if we were just animals driven by basic animal instincts, we'd still be living in small squabbling tribes. I'd say that humans have two outstanding qualities - we're very good at cooperation and coordination, and we're very adaptable in what we can do and the skills we can acquire. Neuroplasticity. I find it amazing that nearly all humans are capable of things like learning to read and driving cars at high speeds on motorways... we're not evolved to do either of those things. The level of understand we've achieved about our environment and the technological and engineering achievements have been immense, and all in a very, very short time. Our ability to research our own origins and the origins and basic mechanics of the universe is amazing.

That's not to say that we're perfect. As it stands, it's looking like our downfall will be that we've not been able to overcome our biases in thinking and or be able to coordinate well or quickly enough to deal with the environmental consequences of success. In particular, our tendency towards short-termism and wishful thinking.

[upthemaggies]

As a species, we carry a lot with us from our deep evolutionary past... we're not evolved for our modern world and that's causing problems. .

Right.

Every human invention adds another layer of chaos to the mix with both the good and the bad that goes with it, the unintended unforeseen consequences often only becoming apparent years, decades, centuries down the line.

Science *IS* a religion, people outsource their thinking to it, trusting it's going to solve all of humanities problems and explain everything.

In the west there's never been a more comfortable period in which to live where everything is available to you at the click of a button, food is available every day of the week less than 15 minutes walk away for most of us and yet we've got a huge percentage of the population now on anti-depressants, addicted to drugs or alcohol, divorce, single parents, self-harm, mental illness etc. etc. Science has done that to them. It's separated them from the land and put them in a human zoo.

Nobody should be intimidated by, nor have any automatic respect for scientists, academics, experts, leaders or whatever letters they've got after their name. They've got a headful of **** like anybody else but with a god complex in addition.

We need to get off our knees and start chanting "You don't know what you're doing, you're don't what you're doing" at the whole ducking lot of 'em.

[Jampie]

You've lost me again. The people calling for action on climate change tend not to be apologists for Putin. In fact, it's rather the opposite... although there's no obvious correlation between the two, those who tend to be pro-Putin tend more towards climate change denialism. Perhaps it's the conspiratorial mindset.

I would bet serious cash Putin's propaganda system routinely regularly boosts "climate change is fake" kinda messages because his entire economy is fossil fuels.

It's not like they use separate arms of the internet lies dept either. I was active in some Australian covid-19 groups during the pandemic and when the war in Ukraine started a whole bunch of, for example, facebook sites that had been pushing anti-vax lies did a 270 degree turn and began screaming pro-russia war propaganda. It was really blatant and jarring, literally one day one set of propaganda, and the next day a completely different message about a completely different topic. At the same time the heavily boosted anti-vax stuff in other forums was still being posted but not as boosted. The upvote-brigade just had higher priorities all of a sudden.

I still think western intelligence agencies and leadership are underestimating the sheer extent to which public opinion in a lot of countries has been manipulated both by our own oligarchs and russian influence.

[Magpies1959]

Jampie, I think you give Putin way to much credit for somehow controlling our thoughts. He certainly has had zero influence on my thoughts about Brexit and vaccines for example. It just seems to be the arrogant lefties way of convincing themselves that, people who have differing views to themselves are too thick to have these opinions without having been influenced by outside forces, namely Putin in your eyes.

There have been enough cases of people trying to prove Putin influenced Brexit, that have been laughed out of court.

[upthemaggies]

Jampie, I think you give Putin way to much credit for somehow controlling our thoughts. He certainly has had zero influence on my thoughts about Brexit and vaccines for example. It just seems to be the arrogant lefties way of convincing themselves that, people who have differing views to themselves are too thick to have these opinions without having been influenced by outside forces, namely Putin in your eyes.

There have been enough cases of people trying to prove Putin influenced Brexit, that have been laughed out of court.

They think that because they've never had an independent thought in their life, they just parrot the narrative and assume anybody who is out of lockstep must be being told what to think and say by the enemy.

[SwalePie]

They think that because they've never had an independent thought in their life, they just parrot the narrative and assume anybody who is out of lockstep must be being told what to think and say by the enemy.

That's what they WANT you to think, don't fall for it.

[Jampie]

Jampie, I think you give Putin way to much credit for somehow controlling our thoughts. He certainly has had zero influence on my thoughts about Brexit and vaccines for example.

That's exactly what Putin would want you to say. Just like all of your statements on both of those subjects. Coincidence? Could be. But given that you think Science is a religion and never supply any evidence for anything you say, where should I think you're getting your views from?

It just seems to be the arrogant lefties way of convincing themselves that, people who have differing views to themselves are too thick to have these opinions without having been influenced by outside forces, namely Putin in your eyes.

There have been enough cases of people trying to prove Putin influenced Brexit, that have been laughed out of court.

Arron Banks met the Russian Ambassador at the Russian embassy on at least four documented occasions and lied about it, after putting eight million pounds down. He fobbed it off as a single lunch once, and was found out. Farage has also been spotted at the Russian embassy. There's basically no chance those observed meetings were the only meetings, and that's been stated by a judge in court.

Not sure how much more blatant that needs to be for you to accept that some influence occurred.

Do you really imagine Putin saw a campaign to split the UK from the EU and decided not to help it along in any way? Can you explain why he would do that?

I may be an arrogant leftie, but if I think you're influenced by things other than facts and science, it's largely because you repeatedly state that you are, as you have done numerous times in this thread. It boggles my mind a bit, given how bang on you are with stats about Notts County that you don't apply the same intellect to other areas. You can bring up our football performance stats going back forever, why can't you do the same, just once, with temperature records? You're more than capable of doing this and have proven it many times.

As to views other than my own... having a right wing view of economics or foreign policy is probably closer to my own viewpoint that most people on the left. I'm perfectly happy to discuss differences of ideology or policy with someone, but "science is a religion" is just not a sane viewpoint I can engage with. It's just a blatantly false statement.

[upthemaggies]

But given that you think Science is a religion and never supply any evidence for anything you say, where should I think you're getting your views from?

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Well there's all we need to know about how your mind works right there. You can't comprehend how anybody could arrive at a point of view without being taken by the hand and led there.

[Jampie]

Well there's all we need to know about how your mind works right there. You can't comprehend how anybody could arrive at a point of view without being taken by the hand and led there.

Or using the facts and deduction. What's this mysterious other way you speak of?

[upthemaggies]

Or using the facts and deduction. What's this mysterious other way you speak of?

You'd have to find that one out for yourself. You aren't going to find it written down anywhere and nobody can show you.

[Magpies1959]

Jampie, I think you are confusing me with UTM, he is the Notts County stats wizard.
Aaron Banks has won his court cases about accusation of being in bed with Putin.
Haha so it was Putin that was responsible for the infamous red bus slogan.

[Elite_Pie]

Haha so it was Putin that was responsible for the infamous red bus slogan.

Doesn't really matter who was responsible for the lie on the side of the bus.

What matters is that a lot of people were stupid enough to believe it.

[upthemaggies]

From GB news........

Rory Stewart has revealed harrowing details of a mental health crisis among MPs and says it’s “a miracle” many of his former colleagues didn't end their lives.

In an exclusive GB News interview, the former Conservative Minister said: “I don't want to talk about the specifics because this is deeply personal to people but yes, colleagues tried to kill themselves.

"These are people I knew. And in very serious ways, I mean they almost killed themselves. It’s a miracle they aren't dead. There were other colleagues who had total breakdowns in the most humiliating, personal, embarrassing fashion possible in public.”

Explaining what he thinks is behind the problem he said: “I think it is because the gap between the way that MPs are encouraged to present themselves to the public and who they really are is almost unsustainable.
“It's mad, because you're pretending to be all-knowing, perfect, dynamic, confident. You are pretending that you’ve got the answers to everything, and that 'I know where we're going'.
"The truth is, this is a country of 70 million people, and politicians don't really know what's going on. And yet, we pretend to the public that we do.”