O/T:- ⚠️Impressed with the leadership [The UK Party Politics Thread]

[i961pie]

Why do you always quote a post of mine but hardly ever address the point within? It?s sort of how online interaction should work.

There?s elements of getting rid of the IHT exemption on farmland that could be tweaked, maybe raise the thresholds somewhat or only make it payable when it?s sold. I would probably delay the means testing of the WFA for a year so all those eligible for pension credits have time to get their claims in. The more I hear about the waspi women the worse the case for their grievance becomes, though I agree that Labour politicians shouldnt have stood beside those ladies waving placards. I generally think taxing wealthy landowners offspring and not giving public money to largely decently well off pensioners are good things. And I?m pretty sure you do too. In 2017 the Tories said they would scrap the WFA and did you vote for Corbyn and McDonnell in 2019 when they said they would give the waspi women 58 BILLION quid?

Your other items are classic bad faith right wing press talking points. Are you really pretending to have a strong view on the Chagos Islands? The absolute epitome of something no one would have cared about if the Tories did it. As I inferred in the post you quoted, the government is getting difficult things done which after the neglect of the last 14 years and a 5 year term in office to come seems wise to me. Both public services and public finances are in a shocking state and they both need fixing. That will take time and money.

Ive addressed your question in good faith. I do find it hard though to take some of the faux outrage about this seriously when the people shouting have voted repeatedly to cut public services to the bone and voted in blatantly dishonest politicians. Especially when most of them voted as well for the Brexit thats made us all much poorer. It?s good that you and others like you have such high expectations of this government, it?s just such a pity you didn?t apply those standards for the last 15 years.

I know Brexit gets blamed on all our woes but I wonder what the EU super power Germany blame on their recession, and France ? Trillions in debt and can't form any kind of decent government. Spain with the largest youth unemployment in Europe. Don't mention Greece they've been bankrupt for about 15 years or more. Italy with their far right government. In fact much of the EU seems to be in a far worse state than us.
What's their excuse?

[Old_pie]

I know Brexit gets blamed on all our woes but I wonder what the EU super power Germany blame on their recession, and France ? Trillions in debt and can't form any kind of decent government. Spain with the largest youth unemployment in Europe. Don't mention Greece they've been bankrupt for about 15 years or more. Italy with their far right government. In fact much of the EU seems to be in a far worse state than us.
What's their excuse?

Perhaps they are starting to miss our financial contribution.

[forwardmagpie]

Why do you always quote a post of mine but hardly ever address the point within? It?s sort of how online interaction should work.

There?s elements of getting rid of the IHT exemption on farmland that could be tweaked, maybe raise the thresholds somewhat or only make it payable when it?s sold. I would probably delay the means testing of the WFA for a year so all those eligible for pension credits have time to get their claims in. The more I hear about the waspi women the worse the case for their grievance becomes, though I agree that Labour politicians shouldnt have stood beside those ladies waving placards. I generally think taxing wealthy landowners offspring and not giving public money to largely decently well off pensioners are good things. And I?m pretty sure you do too. In 2017 the Tories said they would scrap the WFA and did you vote for Corbyn and McDonnell in 2019 when they said they would give the waspi women 58 BILLION quid?

Your other items are classic bad faith right wing press talking points. Are you really pretending to have a strong view on the Chagos Islands? The absolute epitome of something no one would have cared about if the Tories did it. As I inferred in the post you quoted, the government is getting difficult things done which after the neglect of the last 14 years and a 5 year term in office to come seems wise to me. Both public services and public finances are in a shocking state and they both need fixing. That will take time and money.

Ive addressed your question in good faith. I do find it hard though to take some of the faux outrage about this seriously when the people shouting have voted repeatedly to cut public services to the bone and voted in blatantly dishonest politicians. Especially when most of them voted as well for the Brexit thats made us all much poorer. It?s good that you and others like you have such high expectations of this government, it?s just such a pity you didn?t apply those standards for the last 15 years.

I didn?t address your question as I didn't disagree with you.

So can I take it you agree with the farmers and this policy should be changed.

You agree the winter fuel allowance was introduced too quickly.

I agree with you on the WASPI claims and that Starmer, Reeves and Kendall made an error standing with the placards.

I don?t agree with the farmers being taxed when the are passing farms onto their children but I 100% agree with non farmers being heavily taxed.

I disagree with you that the other things are bad faith right wing press if you think the optics in some of these stories (which are true) are bad we live in a different world.

I have no view on the Chagos Islands as I know nout about them but the speed and seemingly underhand way the deal was done again seem poor management.


You haven?t mentioned the ?22 billion black which it appears trying to fix with will in my opinion a ludicrous budget that will cost jobs, raise inflation and stunt growth. I believe this will need another budget with more tax rises. This government should have 5 years to see if it can fix things after a disastrous Tory government but I don?t believe it can.

I strongly believe that Brexit will be a good thing for the UK but like this government we will only know in years to come. I have no faith in the EU and its ludicrous parliament but wouldn?t be against a Common market although that may have been tried before.

We probably disagree about funding as I think more funding is needed in public services but it must be linked to wholesale changes in how things are run. We don?t need the money spend on more management which appears to have happened in the past.


I think I did apply those standards at the last election and didn?t vote for the incumbent government as they did not deserve my vote. I hope you will think the same in 2029 if this government does not deserve your vote.

I hope I have also answered in good faith

[Med Pie]

Why do you always quote a post of mine but hardly ever address the point within? It?s sort of how online interaction should work.
Your other items are classic bad faith right wing press talking points. Are you really pretending to have a strong view on the Chagos Islands? The absolute epitome of something no one would have cared about if the Tories did it. As I inferred in the post you quoted, the government is getting difficult things done which after the neglect of the last 14 years and a 5 year term in office to come seems wise to me. Both public services and public finances are in a shocking state and they both need fixing. That will take time and money.

.

It's cumulative, this government is perceived as anti British but the Chagos Islands are an act of blatant, stupidity. Turning them over to pro China, Mauritius and then actually paying them rent! Gibraltar and then the Falklands will be given over at some point, Starmer denied it so with his track record for lying, that's a given.

Labour are not getting 'difficult' things done, they're hitting easy targets who can't hit back and as for criminality, anyone else read the accusations against Tulip Siddiq and her family today?

[Med Pie]

You haven?t mentioned the ?22 billion black which it appears trying to fix with will in my opinion a ludicrous budget that will cost jobs, raise inflation and stunt growth. I believe this will need another budget with more tax rises. This government should have 5 years to see if it can fix things after a disastrous Tory government but I don?t believe it can.

We probably disagree about funding as I think more funding is needed in public services but it must be linked to wholesale changes in how things are run. We don?t need the money spend on more management which appears to have happened in the past.

I hope I have also answered in good faith

More funding is needed in public services and as you say, this will require tax rises. Everybody wants better services but nobody wants to pay for them.

Regarding the EU, Starmer and his crew just want to point at anything vaguely failing and blame Brexit. They have no intention of making this country stronger, outside of the EU because they want back in!

[keldsyke]

Do you decide the result of a football match after 8 minutes?

I've found it's better to wait until the end.

Come on seriously this shower of ****e? I know you and BFP are clinging on to breadcrumbs in hope, but it?s more like Starmer at the bridge on the Titanic, that Iceberg is coming and Starmer is going to sink with his freebie clothes and glasses getting very wet!! ? did anyone read the Lynsey Hoyle thing on expenses for ?trips? abroad? Regardless of who?s in power I?m guessing we could save loads by cleaning up the corridors of power.

[BigFatPie]

I know Brexit gets blamed on all our woes but I wonder what the EU super power Germany blame on their recession, and France ? Trillions in debt and can't form any kind of decent government. Spain with the largest youth unemployment in Europe. Don't mention Greece they've been bankrupt for about 15 years or more. Italy with their far right government. In fact much of the EU seems to be in a far worse state than us.
What's their excuse?

I must have missed it when anyone ever claimed being in the EU made you recession proof.

On your previous question about Reform, Ive got enough faith in the Uk public that they wont vote in big enough numbers for the people who helped bring us Brexit, who reckon theyre going to fund ?156bn of spending and tax cuts through slashing government waste(didn?t Liz Truss try that? ) and whove made their loathsome careers complaining about foreign interference in the UK but are now going round begging for money from a foreign billionaire who happens to be in cahoots with the prospective leader of a foreign government.

I mean, theyre not that stupid are they?

[OP67]

More funding is needed in public services and as you say, this will require tax rises. Everybody wants better services but nobody wants to pay for them.

Regarding the EU, Starmer and his crew just want to point at anything vaguely failing and blame Brexit. They have no intention of making this country stronger, outside of the EU because they want back in!

The public sector has plenty of money it's just extremely poorly run and has been for decades. Throwing ?billions at it isn't going to sort it, it never has in the past. It just gobbles it all up and spits the private sector workers out who pay the taxes!!

[Med Pie]

The public sector has plenty of money it's just extremely poorly run and has been for decades. Throwing ?billions at it isn't going to sort it, it never has in the past. It just gobbles it all up and spits the private sector workers out who pay the taxes!!

Are you saying that we have enough doctors and nurses and there is no, actual reason that waiting lists are so long or why ambulances have to stack up for hours at a time outside A+E? Are you saying it's simply, badly run and that we don't need more hospitals for the massively increased, population, schools and prisons also?

The infrastructure is in place for a population of 50-60 million, we have nearer 70 million, the maths don't add up

[i961pie]

I mean, theyre not that stupid are they?

Like you said Labour are in for another 4 and a half years much will depend on the state of the country at the end of their term. Remember it was the older generation that voted brexit and it's them that are being hardest hit at present.

[OP67]

Are you saying that we have enough doctors and nurses and there is no, actual reason that waiting lists are so long or why ambulances have to stack up for hours at a time outside A+E? Are you saying it's simply, badly run and that we don't need more hospitals for the massively increased, population, schools and prisons also?

The infrastructure is in place for a population of 50-60 million, we have nearer 70 million, the maths don't add up

I'm not saying we don't but the amount of wasted money in the NHS is ridiculous and could be better spent on more doctors and nurses. More money just leads to more wasted money at the moment. The NHS needs massive reform not billions and billions thrown away at it each year!

[Elite_Pie]

Remember it was the older generation that voted brexit and it's them that are being hardest hit at present.

Remember that a fair few of them won't be here to vote at the next election, they'll be replaced by today's 14-18 year olds.

[jackal2]

I'm not saying we don't but the amount of wasted money in the NHS is ridiculous and could be better spent on more doctors and nurses. More money just leads to more wasted money at the moment. The NHS needs massive reform not billions and billions thrown away at it each year!

True. And if you can get to a situation where the existing money is spent more efficiently and produces the right outcomes for patients, then you'll have a more accurate picture of which areas are genuinely under-resourced and which areas are/were just badly run, which in turn means you can allocate 'new' money to the right places.

I don't often find myself saying positive things about Labour politicians, but a lot of what I've heard from Wes Streeting regarding NHS reform makes sense. The question is whether he means it sincerely, and whether he's prepared for the inevitable battle if he's genuine about trying to make it happen.

Whether it's health, or social care, any criticism or attempt at reform is usually met by the "How could you nasty people possibly queston this service? We're caring people doing good things!" narrative. Of course some parts of these services really are populated by caring people doing wonderful things, but the "protect our public services" line is also used as a shield to hide a lot of poor and self-indulgent practice, and to manipulate the more gullible elements of public opinion into not asking more questions.

The big problem with public sector services is that people have to pay for them whether they're getting a good service or not, so there's always the temptation for some working in those services to conclude that outcomes for customers don't really matter that much because they will get paid anyway. What's needed is the ability to identify and get rid of the bad eggs far more quickly, which sends a sharp message, and then the truly public service-oriented people - those attracted to the sector for all the right reasons - will thrive.

I've got no doubts that if we ever get to a situation where (e.g.) the NHS is operating at its most efficient and the gravy train element have been swept away, its potential is phenomenal.

[BigFatPie]

Happy Christmas Kelsdyke!!

https://x.com/bbcbreaking/status/1870065643615048060?s=46

[BigFatPie]

True. And if you can get to a situation where the existing money is spent more efficiently and produces the right outcomes for patients, then you'll have a more accurate picture of which areas are genuinely under-resourced and which areas are/were just badly run, which in turn means you can allocate 'new' money to the right places.

I don't often find myself saying positive things about Labour politicians, but a lot of what I've heard from Wes Streeting regarding NHS reform makes sense. The question is whether he means it sincerely, and whether he's prepared for the inevitable battle if he's genuine about trying to make it happen.

Whether it's health, or social care, any criticism or attempt at reform is usually met by the "How could you nasty people possibly queston this service? We're caring people doing good things!" narrative. Of course some parts of these services really are populated by caring people doing wonderful things, but the "protect our public services" line is also used as a shield to hide a lot of poor and self-indulgent practice, and to manipulate the more gullible elements of public opinion into not asking more questions.

The big problem with public sector services is that people have to pay for them whether they're getting a good service or not, so there's always the temptation for some working in those services to conclude that outcomes for customers don't really matter that much because they will get paid anyway. What's needed is the ability to identify and get rid of the bad eggs far more quickly, which sends a sharp message, and then the truly public service-oriented people - those attracted to the sector for all the right reasons - will thrive.

I've got no doubts that if we ever get to a situation where (e.g.) the NHS is operating at its most efficient and the gravy train element have been swept away, its potential is phenomenal.

What experience/knowledge are you basing all that on?