O/T This as got to stop.

[KerrAvon]

It?s easy really, a country can be Islamic or a heathen religion. Islam wants all the world to the Islamic, either by force as in this conflict or by stealth as we see in the UK

The irony of this post is that similar scare stories were used to justify persecuting Jews for centuries.

I suppose that The Holocaust has made it a little more awkward for populist politicians to use antisemitism to try to gain power.

[KerrAvon]

I am unable to agree with the full detail of any of the alternative spins on history that appear here. Up to a point, I think it a little pointless to debate the origins of the creation of Israel and the wisdom (or otherwise) of it. The fact is that it happened.

I would argue that what amounted to a land grab in Palestine was always likely to provoke hostility to Israel. There is no military solution to that and the hostility is being perpetuated and deepened by the current behaviour of the Israeli state.

[Yak]

I am unable to agree with the full detail of any of the alternative spins on history that appear here. Up to a point, I think it a little pointless to debate the origins of the creation of Israel and the wisdom (or otherwise) of it. The fact is that it happened.

I would argue that what amounted to a land grab in Palestine was always likely to provoke hostility to Israel. There is no military solution to that and the hostility is being perpetuated and deepened by the current behaviour of the Israeli state.

The current behaviour was in response to women and children getting massacred. That just doesn’t seem to resonate with some people. You have to be naive on their part to expect anything else other than defending itself. Now I do understand that there are limits to defending yourselves. Unfortunately that’s for Isreal to decide and right now they want to obliterate Hamas. I would suggest that’s the right move. You know that organisation that raped and murdered babies.
You reap what you sow.

[NorthWestCorner]

I suppose that The Holocaust has made it a little more awkward for populist politicians to use antisemitism to try to gain power.

You suppose?! This takes the biscuit even for an apologist like you.

[mygiddypant]

The current behaviour was in response to women and children getting massacred. That just doesn?’t seem to resonate with some people. You have to be naive on their part to expect anything else other than defending itself. Now I do understand that there are limits to defending yourselves. Unfortunately that?’s for Isreal to decide and right now they want to obliterate Hamas. I would suggest that?’s the right move. You know that organisation that raped and murdered babies.
You reap what you sow.

I don't think many people would object if Israel decided that they "want to obliterate Hamas."

What people object to is the way they have tried to achieve that objective. IDF can successfully attack targets through guided missiles and mobile phones, but can't apparently find hostages held in tunnels.

The indiscriminate bombing and targeting of journalists and children waiting for food relief are acts of despicable horror.

And before you accuse me of being a Hamas sympathiser, I'm not. They deserve what they got for 07/10.

[Grist_To_The_Mill]

Very Orwellian this isn’t it

Formation of Israel is bad, formation of Palestine is good

[KerrAvon]

The current behaviour was in response to women and children getting massacred. That just doesn’t seem to resonate with some people. You have to be naive on their part to expect anything else other than defending itself. Now I do understand that there are limits to defending yourselves. Unfortunately that’s for Isreal to decide and right now they want to obliterate Hamas. I would suggest that’s the right move. You know that organisation that raped and murdered babies.
You reap what you sow.

I'm well aware of how the latest round of violence started, Yak.

Where I think we disagree is that I don't think the atrocities committed against innocent people in Israel gave the Israeli government a blank cheque to commit atrocities against innocent people in Gaza or to pursue a policy of ethnic cleansing.

You are equating Hamas with the average Palestinian. That's a completely false equivalence. Hamas is a vile organisation that cares little, if at all, for the people it supposedly represents. Your average Palestinian wants a house, a job and a future for his or her kids.

You are absolutely right that you reap what you sow, which is why it would be a good reason for the Israeli government to stop sowing.

[Yak]

I'm well aware of how the latest round of violence started, Yak.

Where I think we disagree is that I don't think the atrocities committed against innocent people in Israel gave the Israeli government a blank cheque to commit atrocities against innocent people in Gaza or to pursue a policy of ethnic cleansing.

You are equating Hamas with the average Palestinian. That's a completely false equivalence. Hamas is a vile organisation that cares little, if at all, for the people it supposedly represents. Your average Palestinian wants a house, a job and a future for his or her kids.

You are absolutely right that you reap what you sow, which is why it would be a good reason for the Israeli government to stop sowing.

Kerr I agree with you and mygiddy I’m a father and I hate to see the suffering of children etc.
I guess I get frustrated when I read comments and watch reporting which totally dismiss the original starting point. Some of the pictures are propaganda but of course not all of them.
I also look at this through military service eyes and that’s a different perspective ( not saying it’s correct).
Hamas must be defeated and the civilians must be protected.
Anyway I’m off to Salford. 👍

[animallittle3]

I am unable to agree with the full detail of any of the alternative spins on history that appear here. Up to a point, I think it a little pointless to debate the origins of the creation of Israel and the wisdom (or otherwise) of it. The fact is that it happened.

I would argue that what amounted to a land grab in Palestine was always likely to provoke hostility to Israel. There is no military solution to that and the hostility is being perpetuated and deepened by the current behaviour of the Israeli state.

I personally don't think it's about the land , I think it's more to do with a religion that isnt Islam practicing in that area .

[KerrAvon]

And yet Muslims, Christians and Jews have managed to peacefully co-exist there in the past.

It's about a sense of injustice, which is a powerful thing, particularly when exploited by people for ther own ends - usually with a view to gaining power for themselves.

[animallittle3]

And yet Muslims, Christians and Jews have managed to peacefully co-exist there in the past.

It's about a sense of injustice, which is a powerful thing, particularly when exploited by people for ther own ends - usually with a view to gaining power for themselves.

Well Arafat walked away from a deal 25 years at Camp David that would have given him a Palestinian state , it's capital in East Jerusalem , 96% of the West Bank and a further 4% of Israel .

A deal Israeli PM Yitzhak Rabin paid for with his life even though Arafat walked away from it .

You have to wonder what great sense of injustice resided within his soul to turn that down ?

Something more powerful perhaps ?

[Grist_To_The_Mill]

And yet Muslims, Christians and Jews have managed to peacefully co-exist there in the past.

It's about a sense of injustice, which is a powerful thing, particularly when exploited by people for ther own ends - usually with a view to gaining power for themselves.

And so they do in the UK

But will it last ?

[Redshank]

Britain has a long and proud history of non-violent but criminal protest. A lot of the freedoms we enjoy today are a direct result of sacrifices made by our ancestors. These freedoms are now under serious threat.

A non-violent protest group launches a campaign of protest and criminal damage against a UK based Israeli weapons manufacturer. Said manufacturer posts annual ? losses as a result.

UK based Israeli weapons manufacturer intensely lobbies UK government to have the non-violent protest group proscribed as a terrorist organisation.

General Lord Richard Dannatt (ex-head of the British army) unashamedly and persistently lobbies the UK government for the same reason on behalf of a US weapons manufacturer.

Non-violent protest group proscribed as terrorists despite hundreds of lawyers and solicitors signing open letters advising against it. UK Home Office now touts vague and unsubstantiated " evidence " of violence as the reason (interestingly, this " evidence " wasn't presented when the government petitioned the courts to have the protest group proscribed).

Pensioners, blind, disabled people are arrested and charged under the terrorism act when they peacefully protest. A decorated ex-army officer also arrested. Many more more people are arrested in the peaceful protest than were arrested in the extremely violent poll tax riots of the 90s.

This is all inextricably linked to the insane level of carnage in Gaza.

Dark powers are at work. The blatant disregard of international law and human rights in the pursuit of the $ should make us all very worried. Our government are up to their necks in it, but don't give a sh;;t

People need to wake up and smell the coffee.

[KerrAvon]

Well Arafat walked away from a deal 25 years at Camp David that would have given him a Palestinian state , it's capital in East Jerusalem , 96% of the West Bank and a further 4% of Israel .

A deal Israeli PM Yitzhak Rabin paid for with his life even though Arafat walked away from it .

You have to wonder what great sense of injustice resided within his soul to turn that down ?

Something more powerful perhaps ?

I see that you have brought into the Israeli version of the deal that Arafat was offered at Camp David. You missed out the surrender of Palestinian mineral rights to Israel, the stationing of Israeli military forces in the proposed Palestinian state, the surrender of most of East Jerusalem and a host of other conditions that would have made it impossible for him to accept.

Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated in 1995 - 5 years before Camp David - making it hard to see how he could have died for what was offered there. He did pay for his desire to see peace with the Palestinians, however - he was killed by an ultra-conservative Jew - the people who now prop up Netanyahu's government and are shaping Israeli policy in Gaza and the West Bank.

[KerrAvon]

And so they do in the UK

But will it last ?

Who can say? Mosely failed to drive the UK public into widespread support for the British Union of Fascists and the fate of the Jews that would have followed, but whether that was because of an innate sense of tolerance in the British public or simply because what was happening in Germany caused people to wake up to where they were being driven who can say?

Sadly, it is far easier to foment unrest now. All the modern day rabble rouser has to do now is to tweet some crap on Twitter and those who want to be fooled will be.