Times up Mason

[On Balance]

Mason does appear out of his depth. That said, is it the Nestor model that is holding him back or is he actually just inept.

We had the very same issue when Tony Mowbray was here in that it appeared he regularly made the wrong selections, players playing out of position, boring sideways and backwards football and of course, not winning many games.

Corberan, much the same, as much as I’d wished he had stayed, it was exactly the same as what we had with TM and now Ryan Mason.

Is Mason, like Mowbray and Corberan working with their hands ties behind their backs. If the shackles were taken off and Mason was allowed to manage and plan in his own style, would it be a whole different ball game (excuse the pun). I think it just might.




[baggiematt]

It is nice to see Matt, that you have finally seen the realism that the Nestor model is not working.

For me, I think I would be good to give Mason the opportunity to manage/coach without being held to the model that clearly has not worked.

Give the man a chance, ditch the Nestor model and see if he is capable. If not then look at where we are and the club would need to make a decision on what to do and where we would want to be going direction wise.

Said the Nestor model was wrong for the club from the start. And it still is.

We are all allowed opinions and it is nice to see you can accept that the Nestor model does not fit with us.

I didnt say the Nestor Model isnt working, I said Mason isnt working. Im not sure why you have put words in my mouth.

As ive said before, the Nestor model is just about building consistency in strategy, not application.

[bordering]

Mason does appear out of his depth. That said, is it the Nestor model that is holding him back or is he actually just inept.

We had the very same issue when Tony Mowbray was here in that it appeared he regularly made the wrong selections, players playing out of position, boring sideways and backwards football and of course, not winning many games.

Corberan, much the same, as much as I’d wished he had stayed, it was exactly the same as what we had with TM and now Ryan Mason.

Is Mason, like Mowbray and Corberan working with their hands ties behind their backs. If the shackles were taken off and Mason was allowed to manage and plan in his own style, would it be a whole different ball game (excuse the pun). I think it just might.




If the Nestor model is at fault then dump it , if Mason is at fault dump him -[ he is always has been the problem] but we won't too much egg on too many faces and too much£ in compensation . Sadly even if Mason had a personality transplant and a realisation that he is job/future is in the balance there is no way back - I think it's called losing the dressing room .

It is a perfect storm - and that's the only way we can use that word perfect about our beloved Baggies,
The only way is down - not relegation but a gentle decline to nowhere and to top it boring football , demotivated team , clueless manager.

It's not the disenchantment it is the misplaced hopes that does for you

[On Balance]

I didnt say the Nestor Model isnt working, I said Mason isnt working. Im not sure why you have put words in my mouth.

As ive said before, the Nestor model is just about building consistency in strategy, not application.

Apologies Matt. No offence intended. It was just the change of view. I understand you are still an advocate of the Nestor model. Sorry for my misunderstanding.

[baggiematt]

Apologies Matt. No offence intended. It was just the change of view. I understand you are still an advocate of the Nestor model. Sorry for my misunderstanding.

Ok. No my view on Mason has changed. A consistent model itself, we have needed one for years.

It’s clear to me that managers arent governed by the model other than to play 433 and put the ball on the ground. You can see this because the last two managers have had full backs that get forward, Mason doesnt.

What the club are asking for is ordinary. Most premier league sides have a system they dont deter from so they spend their money well and players are best utilised if a manager leaves or gets the chop. Brentford are a fine example. Forest and West Ham are a mess because they keep switching what they want.

[On Balance]

If the Nestor model is at fault then dump it , if Mason is at fault dump him -[ he is always has been the problem] but we won't too much egg on too many faces and too much?‚£ in compensation . Sadly even if Mason had a personality transplant and a realisation that he is job/future is in the balance there is no way back - I think it's called losing the dressing room .

It is a perfect storm - and that's the only way we can use that word perfect about our beloved Baggies,
The only way is down - not relegation but a gentle decline to nowhere and to top it boring football , demotivated team , clueless manager.

It's not the disenchantment it is the misplaced hopes that does for you

Bordering, I can agree in part with what you write, there definitely is a decline over the last couple of years and as it stands it will not halt until, the Nestor model is rejected and placed in a locked box and never brought out again. It may work if you are a club that can throw money at players who can perform to it. However, our club cannot as we are unable to afford players that are good enough. If it is not about the base skill of players then why is it not working. Perhaps the coach, but we have had two, possibly three, that have found difficulty in making it work. Trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is, well we all know the answer to that.

I am sure that if Patel wanted rid of Mason he would get rid. Financially it would cost, however the cost of keeping him may be greater. That is not to say I would love to see him given the opportunity to break free of the Nestor master plan.

As for misplaced hopes, well I was certainly thinking mid table this year as being a respectable finish, with the outside hope of making it top six and a playoff place.

We are sinking, you are right. Hopefully, one way or another that changes. It was just under a six hour round trip yesterday. It was a painful return leg home I can tell you. We as a family do it often, but I know two of them are thinking it is just not worth the time at the moment.

As Baggieal says often,, I do not mind losing, but at least give it a go.

[On Balance]

Ok. No my view on Mason has changed. A consistent model itself, we have needed one for years.

It?’s clear to me that managers arent governed by the model other than to play 433 and put the ball on the ground. You can see this because the last two managers have had full backs that get forward, Mason doesnt.

What the club are asking for is ordinary. Most premier league sides have a system they dont deter from so they spend their money well and players are best utilised if a manager leaves or gets the chop. Brentford are a fine example. Forest and West Ham are a mess because they keep switching what they want.

I see what you are saying Matt, and I guess you may very well be right regarding the model. As a business, we have a system/model that each office in an area follows. It is our system and it works for us. We do though allow management to work in each area as they see fit, as long as they do so within our remit. It works as we do not often need to recruit.

Football though is a different business. I just see it has not worked for us, at least that is, with the last two incumbents and possibly three of you include Corberan. As I say, you may be proven correct and I will be more than happy if that is the case, and we begin playing decent football once more. With or without Mason.

I am just not convinced in regard to the Nestor model, but that is what having differing opinions and football is all about.

[baggiematt]

I see what you are saying Matt, and I guess you may very well be right regarding the model. As a business, we have a system/model that each office in an area follows. It is our system and it works for us. We do though allow management to work in each area as they see fit, as long as they do so within our remit. It works as we do not often need to recruit.

Football though is a different business. I just see it has not worked for us, at least that is, with the last two incumbents and possibly three of you include Corberan. As I say, you may be proven correct and I will be more than happy if that is the case, and we begin playing decent football once more. With or without Mason.

I am just not convinced in regard to the Nestor model, but that is what having differing opinions and football is all about.

I do think the club had too much to deal with this summer. The defence, midfield, wide positions and attack needed sorting. Thats far too much to fix in one go on top of having to sell our best assets to survive. For me, its miles to understated how big the mess is that needed fixing by Nestor, Patel and co.

We also clearly tried to get some players before the window shut and didnt get them over the line. I think thats one of the reasons why it all doesnt quite work.

That said, the manager is key to making it all work and he doesnt appear capable.

Id give my right arm for Corberan back. He overperformed season on season with a rubbish side and no money. We dont know what he could do with some transfers behind him.

[Omegstrat6]

I see what you are saying Matt, and I guess you may very well be right regarding the model. As a business, we have a system/model that each office in an area follows. It is our system and it works for us. We do though allow management to work in each area as they see fit, as long as they do so within our remit. It works as we do not often need to recruit.

Football though is a different business. I just see it has not worked for us, at least that is, with the last two incumbents and possibly three of you include Corberan. As I say, you may be proven correct and I will be more than happy if that is the case, and we begin playing decent football once more. With or without Mason.

I am just not convinced in regard to the Nestor model, but that is what having differing opinions and football is all about.

Personally, I think it's likely to be a mixture of both the model not properly suiting and Mason's inexperience at this level.

Like yourself OB, I have worked for companies that have certain models and procedures that work well for them but they avoid being too didactic by allowing managers a degree of "freedom within the framework" to better meet local situations/opportunities and not stifle individual initiatives. However, I have also worked for those who have introduced new systems/ procedures that do not work well mostly because the resource available doesn't match the needs. The common problem here is that those at centre wanting to implement these new systems are too divorced from the realities at the sharp end. If the systems fail, however, they tend to blame the local management teams for not implementing them correctly. You're right in that running a football club is a bit of a different animal but there are still commonalities and things to learn from the above.

I don't doubt that, with the right players and coaches, the Nestor model could work and I see no problem with working towards this. The issue seems to be in facing up to the reality that we do not currently have a squad capable of implementing the game plan that model ultimately wants. Rather than forcing it upon players, it would surely be much better to make compromises and try to allow us to better play to the strengths of the players we do have. If we don't do so, we will lose more points, slip further down the table and the rebuild to meet the requirements and aims of Nestor's model will be made even harder.

[WBA123]

I do think the club had too much to deal with this summer. The defence, midfield, wide positions and attack needed sorting. Thats far too much to fix in one go on top of having to sell our best assets to survive. For me, its miles to understated how big the mess is that needed fixing by Nestor, Patel and co.

We also clearly tried to get some players before the window shut and didnt get them over the line. I think thats one of the reasons why it all doesnt quite work.

That said, the manager is key to making it all work and he doesnt appear capable.

Id give my right arm for Corberan back. He overperformed season on season with a rubbish side and no money. We dont know what he could do with some transfers behind him.

Valencia are in a bad run of form....perhaps a return could be on the cards sooner than you think

[baggieal]

Valencia are in a bad run of form....perhaps a return could be on the cards sooner than you think

I thought CC would do well at first but guessed the start of the new season would not be repeated. Some will say outgoings blah blah but some great managers do well with limited resources like a few in our division.

No surprise Port Vale are struggling but Bradford who came up too are flying!

[kettering_baggie]

The idea of replacing Mason at this stage is, in my opinion, most premature. Who would you bring in? There’s no guarantee that anyone would fare any better with our squad and lest we forget, Ryan Mason is in his first head coach/manager role, he must surely be given adequate time to get the players singing to his tune. I think the current trend of sacking the manager when a few results don’t go your way is absurd. Some of the game’s best ever managers had rocky starts to their careers. We have what we have, we need to give it time to develop and as long as we’re not in the relegation dog fight, we hang in there.

[baggieal]

The idea of replacing Mason at this stage is, in my opinion, most premature. Who would you bring in? There’s no guarantee that anyone would fare any better with our squad and lest we forget, Ryan Mason is in his first head coach/manager role, he must surely be given adequate time to get the players singing to his tune. I think the current trend of sacking the manager when a few results don’t go your way is absurd. Some of the game’s best ever managers had rocky starts to their careers. We have what we have, we need to give it time to develop and as long as we’re not in the relegation dog fight, we hang in there.

Don?t disagree with your sentiments but you can?t blame the supporters who pay good money to boo at the end of the game. My lad loves West Brom but hates the dross served up by Mason and still forking out a s hit load of money to go to Charlton. Like anyone else he?s got every right ( more so than me on my sofa ) to vent his feelings if the same negative dross is served up yet again with zero attempts on goal!

Shilen is a very intelligent and ruthless businessman and he will act if frustrations grow stronger and more empty seats start appearing like Saturday. 100% it?s down to the manager even though our squad is not great. Is the squad any worse than Hull for example who have an attack minded manager and playing some great football? No!

[On Balance]

Personally, I think it's likely to be a mixture of both the model not properly suiting and Mason's inexperience at this level.

Like yourself OB, I have worked for companies that have certain models and procedures that work well for them but they avoid being too didactic by allowing managers a degree of "freedom within the framework" to better meet local situations/opportunities and not stifle individual initiatives. However, I have also worked for those who have introduced new systems/ procedures that do not work well mostly because the resource available doesn't match the needs. The common problem here is that those at centre wanting to implement these new systems are too divorced from the realities at the sharp end. If the systems fail, however, they tend to blame the local management teams for not implementing them correctly. You're right in that running a football club is a bit of a different animal but there are still commonalities and things to learn from the above.

I don't doubt that, with the right players and coaches, the Nestor model could work and I see no problem with working towards this. The issue seems to be in facing up to the reality that we do not currently have a squad capable of implementing the game plan that model ultimately wants. Rather than forcing it upon players, it would surely be much better to make compromises and try to allow us to better play to the strengths of the players we do have. If we don't do so, we will lose more points, slip further down the table and the rebuild to meet the requirements and aims of Nestor's model will be made even harder.

Sorry Omeg, missed this, there is so much in life, and on here sometimes to try and keep up with.

Anyway, i agree wholeheartedly with the above, an erudite post.

That is exactly how i see it. It Nestor model may well work if you have the players, the manager/coach and the financial clout to make it work.

[On Balance]

I do think the club had too much to deal with this summer. The defence, midfield, wide positions and attack needed sorting. Thats far too much to fix in one go on top of having to sell our best assets to survive. For me, its miles to understated how big the mess is that needed fixing by Nestor, Patel and co.

We also clearly tried to get some players before the window shut and didnt get them over the line. I think thats one of the reasons why it all doesnt quite work.

That said, the manager is key to making it all work and he doesnt appear capable.

Id give my right arm for Corberan back. He overperformed season on season with a rubbish side and no money. We dont know what he could do with some transfers behind him.

Absolutely with you Matt re Corberan. I wish we could have kept him.

That said, it may be with some hindsight given our present situation.