O/T Trump sells out Ukraine

[Omegstrat6]

Zelensky is between a rock and a hard place-either accept Trump's 28 point plan for peace which overwhelmingly benefits Russia or else risk losing US support completely and face yet another hard winter and increasing loss of civilian lives and destruction of his country. Trump has easily side stepped those European allies who are members of the toothless "Alliance of the Willing" and graciously allowed Ukraine until Thanksgiving to consider.

Read through the details of his plan and it is clear that it demands little short of capitulation from Ukraine and despite the use of seized Russian assets to help rebuild the country it allows Putin all the things he demanded at the outset and more. Several US politicians, former diplomats and ex-military leaders have likened Trump's plan to the infamous 1938 Munich Agreement but the Orange One has already replaced experienced negotiators with flunkies like former real estate mogul Witkoff and any ethical concerns won't even enter his head.

Of course, any peace negotiation would require concessions from both sides but Trump's particular plan is so heavily weighted in favour of Putin it would be almost laughable if the potential consequences weren't so dire. We can quite rightly moan about Starmer and our own crop of useless and failing politicians but surely none of them would sink to the level of this current POTUS. How many previous presidents must be rolling in their graves at his actions and behaviour? The bottom line is that, as POTUS, Trump has the power and leverage to ask far much more of Putin in order to create a fairer and more just peace settlement but has chosen not to. One question should be to ask why.

[baggieal]

Zelensky is between a rock and a hard place-either accept Trump's 28 point plan for peace which overwhelmingly benefits Russia or else risk losing US support completely and face yet another hard winter and increasing loss of civilian lives and destruction of his country. Trump has easily side stepped those European allies who are members of the toothless "Alliance of the Willing" and graciously allowed Ukraine until Thanksgiving to consider.

Read through the details of his plan and it is clear that it demands little short of capitulation from Ukraine and despite the use of seized Russian assets to help rebuild the country it allows Putin all the things he demanded at the outset and more. Several US politicians, former diplomats and ex-military leaders have likened Trump's plan to the infamous 1938 Munich Agreement but the Orange One has already replaced experienced negotiators with flunkies like former real estate mogul Witkoff and any ethical concerns won't even enter his head.

Of course, any peace negotiation would require concessions from both sides but Trump's particular plan is so heavily weighted in favour of Putin it would be almost laughable if the potential consequences weren't so dire. We can quite rightly moan about Starmer and our own crop of useless and failing politicians but surely none of them would sink to the level of this current POTUS. How many previous presidents must be rolling in their graves at his actions and behaviour? The bottom line is that, as POTUS, Trump has the power and leverage to ask far much more of Putin in order to create a fairer and more just peace settlement but has chosen not to. One question should be to ask why.

Personally I think Trump should either put up or shut up. He has threatened to pull out of NATO before so in a scenario he did - are the big boys from NATO going to grow a pair! They could use the billions in frozen assets but they won’t!

As for Trump he’s done more than Biden who didn’t even allow the Ukrainians to fire into Russian territory. Also Trump was right in that how can you beat Russia when NATO allies are feeding their killing machines by buying Russian oil.

A lot in the US don’t want another war with the cost when many see that Europe are doing very little in terms of financial support compared to the US and Poland.

It’s a good job Corbyn is in the background as we would have zero defence and Trident would be left to rot. What kind of people vote for this nutter?

[Leicesterbaggie]

I am convinced that, either Putin has got something on Trump or that they have divided up certain assets between them. Trump does absolutely nothing that is not advantageous to him. I feel so sorry for Zelensky and the country of Ukraine.

[Omegstrat6]

Sadly, whilst the combined European members of NATO could still inflict a lot of damage on Russia, the reality is that without the sheer military might of US back up they have insufficient leverage against Putin, even if they could muster the will power to go up against him.

I don't disagree with Trump calling out many NATO members for not properly paying their way and relying for too long on the US to make up the shortfall, nor do I disagree with criticism of those NATO countries who continue to buy Russian oil, but the US is a key ally and Trump is not acting like one.

History it may be, but the core reason why the US is the most powerful individual country in the world today is because of WW2 and the opportunities that this presented to them. The US benefitted just as much as its European allies in NATO throughout the subsequent decades of the Cold War. Surely it is not too much to ask that Trump shows more support for America's long-standing allies and their shared values rather than giving in too easily to Putin's authoritarian regime?

[Omegstrat6]

I am convinced that, either Putin has got something on Trump or that they have divided up certain assets between them. Trump does absolutely nothing that is not advantageous to him. I feel so sorry for Zelensky and the country of Ukraine.

Indeed LB-just exactly who is this "Bubba" that Trump is supposed to have "blown" in that Epstein e-mail and why does Putin get a mention in it?

[baggieal]

Sadly, whilst the combined European members of NATO could still inflict a lot of damage on Russia, the reality is that without the sheer military might of US back up they have insufficient leverage against Putin, even if they could muster the will power to go up against him.

I don't disagree with Trump calling out many NATO members for not properly paying their way and relying for too long on the US to make up the shortfall, nor do I disagree with criticism of those NATO countries who continue to buy Russian oil, but the US is a key ally and Trump is not acting like one.

History it may be, but the core reason why the US is the most powerful individual country in the world today is because of WW2 and the opportunities that this presented to them. The US benefitted just as much as its European allies in NATO throughout the subsequent decades of the Cold War. Surely it is not too much to ask that Trump shows more support for America's long-standing allies and their shared values rather than giving in too easily to Putin's authoritarian regime?

I agree Omeg but Trump has still done more than Biden who would not even allow Ukranians to fire into Russian territory. Why don?t NATO without the US use all the frozen assets to buy long range missiles? They don?t have the balls!

Starmer is gutless and weak at home so Putin must be laughing his socks off at home. Coalition of the Willing 😂😂

The fact is many US tax payers don?t want to fund another war when they feel Europe for once should get involved.

[baggieal]

The US peace deal is pure and utter arrogance. How can they dictate for Ukraine to half their armed forces. In my view they should either help or do one!

In the event they decide to do one the NATO allies should use every penny of the frozen assets and show some balls for once and tackle Putin alone. That would put two fingers up to US!

[kettering_baggie]

Unfortunately, if the US were to ‘do one’, as you put it, Putin is likely to expand has war activities in Europe in the belief that the resistance would be easily dealt with. Dangerous times and a dangerous time to have someone like Trump in the White House.

[baggieal]

Unfortunately, if the US were to ‘do one’, as you put it, Putin is likely to expand has war activities in Europe in the belief that the resistance would be easily dealt with. Dangerous times and a dangerous time to have someone like Trump in the White House.

Yes on the basis the rest of the allies continue to have no balls! Even nervous about using all the frozen assets held in Brussels! You can?t criticise the US then do nothing yourselves which is still a huge force to be reckoned with.

[baggiematt]

Europe, outside of Russia is miles, miles more powerful than Russia. But we do need time for Germany to re-weaponise (scary thought). What would be scary is if countries like Türkiye turned towards Russia as an ally, as they have a mixed relationship but lots of cooperation.

This deal feels wrong but Russia have the leverage. It feels like they would take the whole of Ukraine in 5-10 years and thats with hefty support from the US and Europe. They were never accepting a deal for peace without serious concessions and the US wont fund an endless war.

Maybe the orange nonce is onto something. Maybe he is just crooked. Probably both.

[Albionic68]

Two words........... stitch up.

[On Balance]

Biden was, for all his frailties, concerned he?d be responsible for taking the West into WW3. Trump on the other hand is a cowardly individual who is more aligned to the likes of Putin and Saudi Arabia?s Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, than he is aligned to the West.

Biden supplied Ukraine with military training, weapons, tanks, combat vehicles and ammunition. Trump has not done so. He sells some weapons etc. to NATO who provide it to Ukraine. A huge difference. Biden also permitted Ukraine to use long range missiles into Russia around mid November 2024. A little late perhaps, but he did provide and permit Ukraine to do so. Trump has not done so.

Trump did indicate he was going to provide Tomahawk missiles to Ukraine at a cost to NATO. And that they may be permitted to use them against legitimate targets in Russia. He then backtracked and did not provide tomahawks. Trump has done significantly less in support of Ukraine than Biden did.

Fortunately, millions of Americans have realised Trump is not what they voted for. He is a narcissist, a misogynist, a coward and a bully all in one. He is a President who is losing any credibility he may once have had. Unfortunately there is still an element that fail to see the damage he is doing long term in the first year of his second presidency.

The disgusting way he treated President Zelenskyy in the Whitehouse will not be forgotten. The disgusting way he spoke to a female reporter, on Airforce One this week, when he raged at Catherine Lucey, Bloomberg’s White House correspondent, “Quiet. Quiet, piggy.” Later on he verbally attacked a female reporter when he was in the company of Saudi Arabia’s Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, in the Whitehouse. “You’re a terrible person and a terrible reporter,” the president said. “You ought to go back and learn how to be a reporter. No more questions from you.” He shows such contempt towards females.

It will be interesting to see the outcome following the release of the Epstein files, if, as I think it was Leicesterbaggie said, the files are released in full or not redacted, if and/or how he was involved with a *****phile.

Unfortunately, it is a job well done by Putin, who saw a weakness in the orange coward and took advantage of it. Putin has played Trump like a true poppet master.

All those Ukraine soldiers and civilians who have lost their lives. What for I ask? What real securities will Ukraine have? What happens when Russia wants a bit more?
The West has shown it is weak. The Russian bear is not tamed, it will likely rebuild and go again.

[Dubbag]

Biden was, for all his frailties, concerned he?d be responsible for taking the West into WW3. Trump on the other hand is a cowardly individual who is more aligned to the likes of Putin and Saudi Arabia?s Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, than he is aligned to the West.

Biden supplied Ukraine with military training, weapons, tanks, combat vehicles and ammunition. Trump has not done so. He sells some weapons etc. to NATO who provide it to Ukraine. A huge difference. Biden also permitted Ukraine to use long range missiles into Russia around mid November 2024. A little late perhaps, but he did provide and permit Ukraine to do so. Trump has not done so.

Trump did indicate he was going to provide Tomahawk missiles to Ukraine at a cost to NATO. And that they may be permitted to use them against legitimate targets in Russia. He then backtracked and did not provide tomahawks. Trump has done significantly less in support of Ukraine than Biden did.

Fortunately, millions of Americans have realised Trump is not what they voted for. He is a narcissist, a misogynist, a coward and a bully all in one. He is a President who is losing any credibility he may once have had. Unfortunately there is still an element that fail to see the damage he is doing long term in the first year of his second presidency.

The disgusting way he treated President Zelenskyy in the Whitehouse will not be forgotten. The disgusting way he spoke to a female reporter, on Airforce One this week, when he raged at Catherine Lucey, Bloomberg’s White House correspondent, “Quiet. Quiet, piggy.” Later on he verbally attacked a female reporter when he was in the company of Saudi Arabia’s Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, in the Whitehouse. “You’re a terrible person and a terrible reporter,” the president said. “You ought to go back and learn how to be a reporter. No more questions from you.” He shows such contempt towards females.

It will be interesting to see the outcome following the release of the Epstein files, if, as I think it was Leicesterbaggie said, the files are released in full or not redacted, if and/or how he was involved with a *****phile.

Unfortunately, it is a job well done by Putin, who saw a weakness in the orange coward and took advantage of it. Putin has played Trump like a true poppet master.

All those Ukraine soldiers and civilians who have lost their lives. What for I ask? What real securities will Ukraine have? What happens when Russia wants a bit more?
The West has shown it is weak. The Russian bear is not tamed, it will likely rebuild and go again.

The stark reality for many dumb ass Americans nowadays is that they voted for a communist loving dick. Republicans need to understand but don't. An important week globally for Democracy.

[baggieal]

The stark reality for many dumb ass Americans nowadays is that they voted for a communist loving dick. Republicans need to understand but don't. An important week globally for Democracy.

You are right Dubs but equally many dumb ass Brits voted for Starmer and all of a sudden he?s the worst PM in history and Labour ratings are rock bottom. Many loonies still love and vote for Jeremy Corbyn who advocates any defence would be scrapped and Trident would be left to rot. Perhaps Corbyn thinks the Russians will be chums but if not they could be fought with dinner cutlery 😂

[wbaliquidator]

Putin plays Trump again.
Not even the Russians really expect anyone other than their man in the Whitehouse to accept the plan but Trump may cease any desperately needed American weapons shipments or intelligence transfer and that will be a massive win for Putin nevertheless.

Europe has had a Year now to prepare this scenario, but have they taken action? and are they willing to step up.
All that remaining military hardware in Europe needs to be sent to Ukraine now as that rainy day is here now!

Watching those poor defenceless grannies, women and kids being dug out of demolished tower blocks make me so angry.
Where are the real statesman, the leaders of the free world?
All I see is an apathetic selfish society across most the world and honestly, I despair at times.
If I were younger or in better health I would even volunteer in some way. I do support some of the charitable organisations out there and I suggest you guys do the same if you can, there are many of them and don?t say they are all corrupt as an excuse.