Egg on your face BaggieAl

[greyhorse]

A football derby in Tel Aviv between Hapoel and Maccabi has been cancelled after "violent riots", according to Israeli police.

Nine people were arrested on Sunday night at Bloomfield Stadium, a venue shared by both clubs. Hapoel were the home team for the game.

A statement from Israeli police said the game was called off "following disturbances and violent riots" in which 13 civilians and three officers were injured by pyrotechnic devices.

"These are very serious incidents that posed a real danger to the lives of police officers and civilians," the statement added.

Are you going to call the Israeli police anti-semitic 50pBaggieAl? and will you welcome these thugs with open arms if UK Gov changes there mind and allows them in?

[baggieal]

A football derby in Tel Aviv between Hapoel and Maccabi has been cancelled after "violent riots", according to Israeli police.

Nine people were arrested on Sunday night at Bloomfield Stadium, a venue shared by both clubs. Hapoel were the home team for the game.

A statement from Israeli police said the game was called off "following disturbances and violent riots" in which 13 civilians and three officers were injured by pyrotechnic devices.

"These are very serious incidents that posed a real danger to the lives of police officers and civilians," the statement added.

Are you going to call the Israeli police anti-semitic 50pBaggieAl? and will you welcome these thugs with open arms if UK Gov changes there mind and allows them in?

What has a local derby got to do with religion? Plenty of matches in this country have been abandoned or called off including our match v Wolves. Even on Saturday there was a pitch invasion at Salford by thugs and numerous arrests.

It?s you who is looking stupid Oldhambaggie - the little fat man at 4 foot 8 inches trying to cause trouble plus banned more times on this board than I?ve had hot dinners. Your mate from Barnsley away still thinks you?re a no mark.

[Dubbag]

A football derby in Tel Aviv between Hapoel and Maccabi has been cancelled after "violent riots", according to Israeli police.

Nine people were arrested on Sunday night at Bloomfield Stadium, a venue shared by both clubs. Hapoel were the home team for the game.

A statement from Israeli police said the game was called off "following disturbances and violent riots" in which 13 civilians and three officers were injured by pyrotechnic devices.

"These are very serious incidents that posed a real danger to the lives of police officers and civilians," the statement added.

Are you going to call the Israeli police anti-semitic 50pBaggieAl? and will you welcome these thugs with open arms if UK Gov changes there mind and allows them in?

Banning fans from games is not the answer. Football has always attracted hooligans and most clubs have suffered from it at some time in the past. It also proves harder to police as most likely the away fans will arrive and will get in to the ground anyway. I'm sure Palestine action group will be there outside anyway so the police will be busy either way.

[phild]

I don't think the police like to be busy. They seem to go out of their way to avoid major incidents I've been verbally and physically attacked outside mcdonalds in the High street west brom on 2 separate occasions by a group who clearly sell drugs and ive witnessed uber eats and just eat delivery staff on pushbikes being supplied with drugs and they deliver it to 'customers' Its been reported to police but they still hang around the same spot 2 weeks later

The police are less and less visible each day. The police station is 2 mins from the high street but they never patrol the High Street. ever!!

[Omegstrat6]

The fact that Maccabi have elements of hooliganism within their fan base per se is not the core issue. Most teams have this to varying degrees and unless these elements are considered large or disruptive enough then the policing levels at games should be sufficient to deal with them and therefore avoid the need for a blanket banning of fans from attending.

Unfortunately, however, there are also right wing elements within the Maccabi fans base who are not only violent but racist and anti-Arab/ Palestinian. As the game will almost certainly attract pro-Palestinian protests (even if peaceful) the reasoning behind the decision by the Police to not allow Israeli fans to attend seems entirely reasonable to me. In an ideal world maybe we should have sufficient police to deal with and arrest trouble makers from either side and protect people and property but as this is judged not to be the case surely it is better to try and avoid a potential repeat of what happened in Amsterdam?

[baggieal]

The fact that Maccabi have elements of hooliganism within their fan base per se is not the core issue. Most teams have this to varying degrees and unless these elements are considered large or disruptive enough then the policing levels at games should be sufficient to deal with them and therefore avoid the need for a blanket banning of fans from attending.

Unfortunately, however, there are also right wing elements within the Maccabi fans base who are not only violent but racist and anti-Arab/ Palestinian. As the game will almost certainly attract pro-Palestinian protests (even if peaceful) the reasoning behind the decision by the Police to not allow Israeli fans to attend seems entirely reasonable to me. In an ideal world maybe we should have sufficient police to deal with and arrest trouble makers from either side and protect people and property but as this is judged not to be the case surely it is better to try and avoid a potential repeat of what happened in Amsterdam?

Many of the problems in Amsterdam were caused by the Dutch supporters Omeg and police resourcing should be sufficient to deal with anything ie the frequent mass protests by pro Palestinian's in London where Police are hurt and businesses trashed. You can't have one set of rules for one and not the other. The Police bowed to local MP'S and residents but I doubt whether the same would have happened if Maccabi had been playing Spurs or in Manchester or Leeds where there's huge Jewish communities. Starmer albeit a gutless weak leader even knows the ban was wrong which says something. Coach the Maccabi supporters in - ban protests outside the ground - ban flags inside the ground if necessary so anything to defuse provocation. The Amsterdam issue was no worse than some Italian Derbies with all the Ultras. What about the huge trouble in this country at matches ( even still ) and vile scum singing anti jewish songs at Spurs.

The match should go on.

PS - everyone has a right for opinion or view before any trouble maker attacks either for or against attendance just like everything else.

[greyhorse]

What has a local derby got to do with religion? Plenty of matches in this country have been abandoned or called off including our match v Wolves. Even on Saturday there was a pitch invasion at Salford by thugs and numerous arrests.

It?s you who is looking stupid Oldhambaggie - the little fat man at 4 foot 8 inches trying to cause trouble plus banned more times on this board than I?ve had hot dinners. Your mate from Barnsley away still thinks you?re a no mark.

You missed the point.. the game got cancelled due to trouble and violence, the same reason of why UK authorities deemed it could cause issues here.

Any person or group deemed to potentially cause any trouble arriving from overseas should be banned - why should we pay the for police to handle this? Let alone lives at risk and damage to property. But those arriving in dingies that we know nothing about - ban from football? Of course.

[Omegstrat6]

If it could be effectively policed then I totally agree with you Al. Politics-especially those around circumstances such as the situation in Gaza-will, rightly or wrongly, always infiltrate cultural events whether that's a football match or a pop concert but the majority of fans will doubtless simply want to watch their team. The issue here is that the risk assessments carried out by the police advise that in this particular instance that the Maccabi fans should not be allowed to attend.

I can understand how some might view banning the Israeli fans from going to the game on one hand but allowing pro-Palestinian protests on the other as being an example of so called "two tier" policing but am pretty sure these decisions are based on the independent risk assessments of each situation.

Yes, the pro-Palestinian protests are costly and disruptive but they are overwhelmingly peaceful with only a small minority actually becoming violent or causing damage. Whilst I agree with you that the number of such protests should now be limited, you also have to factor in the right to lawful protest of course.

[baggieal]

If it could be effectively policed then I totally agree with you Al. Politics-especially those around circumstances such as the situation in Gaza-will, rightly or wrongly, always infiltrate cultural events whether that's a football match or a pop concert but the majority of fans will doubtless simply want to watch their team. The issue here is that the risk assessments carried out by the police advise that in this particular instance that the Maccabi fans should not be allowed to attend.

I can understand how some might view banning the Israeli fans from going to the game on one hand but allowing pro-Palestinian protests on the other as being an example of so called "two tier" policing but am pretty sure these decisions are based on the independent risk assessments of each situation.

Yes, the pro-Palestinian protests are costly and disruptive but they are overwhelmingly peaceful with only a small minority actually becoming violent or causing damage. Whilst I agree with you that the number of such protests should now be limited, you also have to factor in the right to lawful protest of course.

Constructive post as always Omeg but for me the supporters should be allowed to attend with measures in place. I still say had these supporters been playing Spurs or in Manchester or Leeds with very large Jewish communities then there would be not the same arguments. That Palestinian Action Group were right to be branded terrorists and they all should have been jailed. The damage at Brize Norton was a national disgrace and cost millions. Anyone supporting this group regardless of what?s going on should be rightly arrested as they are.

As the Italian Leader has said - Starmer needs to get his own house in order as he?s an embarrassment. Although he knows himself this was the wrong decision to his credit for once.

The problem with this match now is if the decision is reversed as it should all the Palestinian/leftie loonies will turn up and there will be huge provocation. Perhaps the police should coach the supporters in and in this occasion for god sake - ban any counter protests with the warning of arrests and also ban any Palestinian or Israeli flags inside the stadium. Shouldn?t be difficult.

[Dubbag]

Constructive post as always Omeg but for me the supporters should be allowed to attend with measures in place. I still say had these supporters been playing Spurs or in Manchester or Leeds with very large Jewish communities then there would be not the same arguments. That Palestinian Action Group were right to be branded terrorists and they all should have been jailed. The damage at Brize Norton was a national disgrace and cost millions. Anyone supporting this group regardless of what?s going on should be rightly arrested as they are.

As the Italian Leader has said - Starmer needs to get his own house in order as he?s an embarrassment. Although he knows himself this was the wrong decision to his credit for once.

The problem with this match now is if the decision is reversed as it should all the Palestinian/leftie loonies will turn up and there will be huge provocation. Perhaps the police should coach the supporters in and in this occasion for god sake - ban any counter protests with the warning of arrests and also ban any Palestinian or Israeli flags inside the stadium. Shouldn?t be difficult.

Hapoel supporters kicked it all off. They are huge rivals here. I am not surprised by this action. Once it was announced that Maccabi fans would be banned this was always going to happen. By the time this game came around, it was odds on that a riot would take place to throw more fuel on the fire. Think Wolves Baggies rivalry...or Celtic, Rangers. Only it's on steroids with these two...

[Omegstrat6]

Constructive post as always Omeg but for me the supporters should be allowed to attend with measures in place. I still say had these supporters been playing Spurs or in Manchester or Leeds with very large Jewish communities then there would be not the same arguments. That Palestinian Action Group were right to be branded terrorists and they all should have been jailed. The damage at Brize Norton was a national disgrace and cost millions. Anyone supporting this group regardless of what?s going on should be rightly arrested as they are.

As the Italian Leader has said - Starmer needs to get his own house in order as he?s an embarrassment. Although he knows himself this was the wrong decision to his credit for once.

The problem with this match now is if the decision is reversed as it should all the Palestinian/leftie loonies will turn up and there will be huge provocation. Perhaps the police should coach the supporters in and in this occasion for god sake - ban any counter protests with the warning of arrests and also ban any Palestinian or Israeli flags inside the stadium. Shouldn?t be difficult.

Your last para just about sums up the problem of now reversing the decision Al.

As for the Palestine Action Group, I am not convinced that this is quite so straightforward tbh. It got onto the proscribed terrorist list after defacing aircraft at Brize Norton and spraying paint inside their engines. Cooper has consistently said that many of those supporting it have been misled and that if they really knew what the Group had been up to, they might understand better the reasons behind this decision. Unfortunately, however, she has never really elaborated on this which may be why so many continue to support it and petition for its removal from the terrorism list.

Palestine Action was set up in 2020 with the stated intention to end global participation in what it claimed was Israel's "genocidal and apartheid regime following Netanyahu's actions in Gaza. I'm sure there are those who would deny that either is true but regardless of the heinous attack by Hamas, surely most clear eyed people would view Israel as coming perilously close to the former in Gaza and perilously close to the latter in the West Bank.

Very costly to correct certainly, but whilst spraying paint into an aircraft's engines will temporarily disable them it is hardly effective sabotage. It isn't blowing things up or killing people either. Nonetheless, it is, of course, an attack on military aircraft that form part of our country's defence. Activists also broke into Elbit Systems which supplies arms to Israel and, alongside vandalism, they also assaulted 3 people including a police officer. Clearly, both actions are indefensible but I am not aware of other activities that might meet the criteria for being proscribed a terrorist group.

Lord Walney -who had both Stop Oil and Palestine Action in mind-previously proposed that extremist protest groups should be banned under a separate category which seems more appropriate but this has yet come to fruition. Under the 2000 Terrorism Act there are currently 84 proscribed groups, many of which are Islamic Extremist ones. Palestine Action is on the list, Stop Oil is not nor is it banned despite criminal activities carried out by some of its activists.

I abhor anti-Semitism but there IS a difference between being anti-Semitic and criticising the actions and behaviour of the Israeli government under Netanyahu and the ultra right Zionist "settlers" who seek to illegally force Palestinians from their homes and land in the West Bank. ( A large number of such "settlers" btw hold American passports and Trump over-turned Biden's sanctions against them when he came to power). A growing number of Jews both within Israel and abroad feel similarly but in our increasingly bipartisan world this is too often ignored and distilled into a simple Muslim/Palestine v Jewish/ Israel conflict. This is both wrong and dangerous and small wonder that Jewish communities in this country (most of whom likely have little support for Netanyahu's actions) feel under threat.

Personally, I feel that any collective guilt felt by the West over either the Holocaust or it's long history of mistreatment and prejudices against Jewish communities should not blind them to what Netanyahu is enabling in both Gaza and the West Bank. Islamic extremists who wish the destruction of Israel are abhorrent and I am not naive enough to believe that there are not some pro-Palestinian protesters for whom the "from the river to the sea" chant really does mean that too but the vast majority, I am sure, interpret it as simply a call for an independent Palestinian state-something Netanyahu and the right wing in Israel vehemently oppose and do their utter most to prevent.

[baggieal]

Your last para just about sums up the problem of now reversing the decision Al.

As for the Palestine Action Group, I am not convinced that this is quite so straightforward tbh. It got onto the proscribed terrorist list after defacing aircraft at Brize Norton and spraying paint inside their engines. Cooper has consistently said that many of those supporting it have been misled and that if they really knew what the Group had been up to, they might understand better the reasons behind this decision. Unfortunately, however, she has never really elaborated on this which may be why so many continue to support it and petition for its removal from the terrorism list.

Palestine Action was set up in 2020 with the stated intention to end global participation in what it claimed was Israel's "genocidal and apartheid regime following Netanyahu's actions in Gaza. I'm sure there are those who would deny that either is true but regardless of the heinous attack by Hamas, surely most clear eyed people would view Israel as coming perilously close to the former in Gaza and perilously close to the latter in the West Bank.

Very costly to correct certainly, but whilst spraying paint into an aircraft's engines will temporarily disable them it is hardly effective sabotage. It isn't blowing things up or killing people either. Nonetheless, it is, of course, an attack on military aircraft that form part of our country's defence. Activists also broke into Elbit Systems which supplies arms to Israel and, alongside vandalism, they also assaulted 3 people including a police officer. Clearly, both actions are indefensible but I am not aware of other activities that might meet the criteria for being proscribed a terrorist group.

Lord Walney -who had both Stop Oil and Palestine Action in mind-previously proposed that extremist protest groups should be banned under a separate category which seems more appropriate but this has yet come to fruition. Under the 2000 Terrorism Act there are currently 84 proscribed groups, many of which are Islamic Extremist ones. Palestine Action is on the list, Stop Oil is not nor is it banned despite criminal activities carried out by some of its activists.

I abhor anti-Semitism but there IS a difference between being anti-Semitic and criticising the actions and behaviour of the Israeli government under Netanyahu and the ultra right Zionist "settlers" who seek to illegally force Palestinians from their homes and land in the West Bank. ( A large number of such "settlers" btw hold American passports and Trump over-turned Biden's sanctions against them when he came to power). A growing number of Jews both within Israel and abroad feel similarly but in our increasingly bipartisan world this is too often ignored and distilled into a simple Muslim/Palestine v Jewish/ Israel conflict. This is both wrong and dangerous and small wonder that Jewish communities in this country (most of whom likely have little support for Netanyahu's actions) feel under threat.

Personally, I feel that any collective guilt felt by the West over either the Holocaust or it's long history of mistreatment and prejudices against Jewish communities should not blind them to what Netanyahu is enabling in both Gaza and the West Bank. Islamic extremists who wish the destruction of Israel are abhorrent and I am not naive enough to believe that there are not some pro-Palestinian protesters for whom the "from the river to the sea" chant really does mean that too but the vast majority, I am sure, interpret it as simply a call for an independent Palestinian state-something Netanyahu and the right wing in Israel vehemently oppose and do their utter most to prevent.

Not really interested in the ins and outs of Gaza because there are worse genocides going on in places like Sudan and Burma where women are gang raped or shot in the head and kids thrown on fires. Nobody ever mentions this but it?s all about Gaza. I find it bizarre how many in this country take more of an interest in Gaza than very rich Arab neighbours who tend not to provide aid or take any Palestines in. Many would say there?s genocide too in Ukraine where Ukrainians were executed, raped and now civilian buildings are bombed daily killing numerous. Where are all the Ukrainian protests?

Many slate Trump ( who I don?t personally like ) but surely they need to look closer to home with very weak NATO leaders some contributing zero towards aid and ammo and unbelievable still buying Russian oil.

To be honest if I were the USA - I would contribute the same percentage of GDP as an average to what other NATO countries are contributing. Is it fair on the USA tax payers to pay more? Even Poland have stepped up a gear.

I get why some slate Trump but then again they should also look at our own spineless leader as mentioned by the Italian leader. Our country is getting worse and whilst I have never voted, I can honestly understand the frustration and despair why the majority will vote Reform. He won?t get in some say - well everyone said that about Trump. Every time Starmer opens his mouth more and more move across to Reform. The further taxation coming in November if done badly ( as it will ) most likely will cause further strife.

I can?t see Gaza ever getting back to normal life until the complete elimination of Hamas and surely many Palestinians would want this! If anyone thinks Hamas will not rebuild ( with the help of Iran ) are deluding themselves. They will as it?s in their blood.

Back to what the Italian Leader said - we need to get our own house in order as it?s getting worse in this country in every aspect. We learnt nothing from Afghanistan where women are getting treated like dog s hit on a shoe again and there?s public executions daily. So it begs the question - why did we interfere in the first place? Sadly we can?t police the world nor can we expect the USA to do any more going forward than any other NATO country - why should they! So like Afghanistan - why interfere in other countries conflicts? Putin will get what he wants and come on - that?s not Trump or the incredibly weak Biden before him. It?s the weakness of NATO and Putin knows it!

Let?s keep out of these conflicts as little old Britain does not have the military capability anymore and focus on our own house. Strangely I have not seen any other flags of countries where genocide is brutally worse so we need to ask ourselves why! I even turn the news over when Gaza is on now as more interested in Tapas restaurants in the forthcoming trip to Seville! Ideally I would like to eat my Patatas Bravas with nice red wine knowing every conflict in the world can be sorted. The reality is it can?t!

[Omegstrat6]

Not really interested in the ins and outs of Gaza because there are worse genocides going on in places like Sudan and Burma where women are gang raped or shot in the head and kids thrown on fires. Nobody ever mentions this but it?s all about Gaza. I find it bizarre how many in this country take more of an interest in Gaza than very rich Arab neighbours who tend not to provide aid or take any Palestines in. Many would say there?s genocide too in Ukraine where Ukrainians were executed, raped and now civilian buildings are bombed daily killing numerous. Where are all the Ukrainian protests?

Many slate Trump ( who I don?t personally like ) but surely they need to look closer to home with very weak NATO leaders some contributing zero towards aid and ammo and unbelievable still buying Russian oil.

To be honest if I were the USA - I would contribute the same percentage of GDP as an average to what other NATO countries are contributing. Is it fair on the USA tax payers to pay more? Even Poland have stepped up a gear.

I get why some slate Trump but then again they should also look at our own spineless leader as mentioned by the Italian leader. Our country is getting worse and whilst I have never voted, I can honestly understand the frustration and despair why the majority will vote Reform. He won?t get in some say - well everyone said that about Trump. Every time Starmer opens his mouth more and more move across to Reform. The further taxation coming in November if done badly ( as it will ) most likely will cause further strife.

I can?t see Gaza ever getting back to normal life until the complete elimination of Hamas and surely many Palestinians would want this! If anyone thinks Hamas will not rebuild ( with the help of Iran ) are deluding themselves. They will as it?s in their blood.

Back to what the Italian Leader said - we need to get our own house in order as it?s getting worse in this country in every aspect. We learnt nothing from Afghanistan where women are getting treated like dog s hit on a shoe again and there?s public executions daily. So it begs the question - why did we interfere in the first place? Sadly we can?t police the world nor can we expect the USA to do any more going forward than any other NATO country - why should they! So like Afghanistan - why interfere in other countries conflicts? Putin will get what he wants and come on - that?s not Trump or the incredibly weak Biden before him. It?s the weakness of NATO and Putin knows it!

Let?s keep out of these conflicts as little old Britain does not have the military capability anymore and focus on our own house. Strangely I have not seen any other flags of countries where genocide is brutally worse so we need to ask ourselves why! I even turn the news over when Gaza is on now as more interested in Tapas restaurants in the forthcoming trip to Seville! Ideally I would like to eat my Patatas Bravas with nice red wine knowing every conflict in the world can be sorted. The reality is it can?t!

You're quite right about what is going on in Sudan and Burma Al (and in too many other places as well!) but whilst news about these are readily available on BBC world news it's very rarely on the "front page". I guess both Ukraine and Gaza figure more prominently because we have more ties with them?

As for Starmer, I totally agree that there are plenty of things that need sorting out in the UK before he focuses too much on foreign affairs. Like many, however, I think he is sadly lacking in the leadership qualities needed.

After 15 years of Conservative rule, you can't blame Labour for all the ills this country currently faces but the tool makers son doesn't inspire confidence in anyone other than his closest allies that he has any proper solutions and some of his policies (the additional 2% NI costs for businesses for example) have actively made things worse for many working people. Then again, neither Bad Enoch, Farage or Davey seem to have any genuine solutions either. One thing is pretty certain though which is that November won't bring much pre Xmas cheer😞

Anyhow, enjoy Seville when you get there- and a few relaxing glasses of red!

[Dubbag]

All sorted now. Maccabi have declined to purchase tickets for their away allotment.
From their site....the Maccabi website on Monday evening read: "The wellbeing and safety of our fans is paramount and, from hard lessons learned, we have taken the decision to decline any allocation offered on behalf of away fans, and our decision should be understood in that context.

[On Balance]

All sorted now. Maccabi have declined to purchase tickets for their away allotment.
From their site....the Maccabi website on Monday evening read: "The wellbeing and safety of our fans is paramount and, from hard lessons learned, we have taken the decision to decline any allocation offered on behalf of away fans, and our decision should be understood in that context.

That makes sense Dubbag. The wellbeing and safety of all was always the reasoning behind West Mids Police’s decision in the first place.