O/T:- Media Bias

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Originally Posted by Newish Pie

I think the point that I was trying to make was that the right way forward lay between the two extremes, not that I thought you necessarily endorsed the extreme view. Just that you can go wrong at least as badly by accepting nothing short of criminal convictions as evidence for anything ever, just as you can by believing everything you hear.

Do you think that the serious allegations against Brand are merely "gossip"? Surely not.

Surely they're significantly more than gossip, even if it's not yet a criminal conviction. I'm arguing that there's this complicated, messy middle ground which we have to work out how to deal with, and which we can't inflate to the same status as a criminal conviction or deflate to the point at which it's just gossip and hearsay and carries no weight whatsoever.

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The allegations against him... I don't think about them at all. When they result in charges, that'll be a data point. Another one with a conviction, another sentencing etc. If I were interested (I'm not) I'd read the sentencing judge's summary if published. Those can run into hundreds of pages but if you're actually interested in the case it'll tell you a tonne more than every press article about it put together.

I personally can't form an opinion on innocence or guilt based on "modern journalism".

There's always been a section of the population in every EU country against membership, and a significantly larger one who didn't like a lot of what the EU meant, but overall would still stay in.

Any political construct is a compromise - the EU, the UK, London. For some people that compromise won't work.

However regarding the EU, such people have been in a minority pretty much everywhere (even, with the exception of a year or two when it mattered, in the UK) and the EU countries' perception of Brexit has significantly increased support for staying in.

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Public demand for the UK joining the EU is going to continue to outstrip the political appetite for talking about it because the media makes taking the majority (or plurality, at least) position impossible for politicians. Which is a curious thing to ponder, really.

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Originally Posted by Magpies1959

Very interesting post keldsyke, from someone with first hand experience of how people in Europe feel about the EU. What the hell is wrong with countries having their own identities and trying to do the best for their people, while remaining on good business terms with other countries.

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I think 'someone with anecdotal experience of how a tiny number of people in Europe feel about the EU' would be more accurate.

I could mention (and I think I did at the time of the Brexit debate when Keldsyke posted something similar) that the overwhelming majority of the people I met during my 16 years living in Italy were pro EU.

I would also point out that most of the countries he listed have PR electoral systems which allow small parties to get into parliament and make a change. In Italy Lega Nord ran a campaign on leaving the euro and going back to the lira but swept that under the carpet as soon as it got into power. Giorgia Meloni has been generally critical about the EU for most of her political career without formally running on an Italexit policy, but since she took power has been surprisingly constructive in her dealings with the EU.

I am surprised to see that Keldsyke's Polish colleagues wanted out of the EU when their country was basically rebuilt with hundreds of billions of euros from the EU and they've had next to no immigration, but there we are.

Germany has issues but they are linked to Merkel era decisions to hitch their economy hook line and sinker to cheap Russian gas to get a competitive advantage over other manufacturing countries, which was great while it lasted but always risky, and going on TV and inviting millions of Syrian refugees to come.

Perosnally, I would imagine the biggest danger to the EU going forward is immigration via the Mediterranean and the fact that a lot of people don't like it. But the penny seems to have dropped to some extent on that, as well as on hasty enlargement. What new policies they can execute to deal with that is another question.

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Originally Posted by Magpies1959

Very interesting post keldsyke, from someone with first hand experience of how people in Europe feel about the EU. What the hell is wrong with countries having their own identities and trying to do the best for their people, while remaining on good business terms with other countries.

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What is wrong is when your particular country is taken over by a lying, deceitful and utterly incompetent government.

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Originally Posted by drillerpie

I am surprised to see that Keldsyke's Polish colleagues wanted out of the EU when their country was basically rebuilt with hundreds of billions of euros from the EU and they've had next to no immigration, but there we are.

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For balance, the Portuguese and Spanish fall into that bracket, especially the Portuguese who had essentially nothing at the time and were feeding off the EU, we had more Portuguese there as at the time work wise there was nothing in Portugal.

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Originally Posted by Elite_Pie

What is wrong is when your particular country is taken over by a lying, deceitful and utterly incompetent government.

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To be fair that goes back decades, whoever is in charge will make mistakes , you have to accept it, they are all as bad as each other… we have a saying in motorsport ‘same ****e, different T shirt’ and I think that applies to most careers.

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Originally Posted by keldsyke

To be fair that goes back decades, whoever is in charge will make mistakes , you have to accept it, they are all as bad as each other.

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I disagree. I don't think we've ever had a government as bad as this one, especially the period since Boris Johnson became Prime Minister.

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Originally Posted by Elite_Pie

I disagree. I don't think we've ever had a government as bad as this one, especially the period since Boris Johnson became Prime Minister.

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Whilst Keldsyke has a grain of truth in saying that both parties have their share of self-servers, Elite's right that he is wrong to say they are as bad as each other.
This Tory government has witnessed 13 years of mismanagement but since the referendum they have truly become 'the pits'. The only one of them I have any time for is Rory Stewart and he knows he is in the wrong party and knows it.

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Originally Posted by sidders

Whilst Keldsyke has a grain of truth in saying that both parties have their share of self-servers, Elite's right that he is wrong to say they are as bad as each other.
This Tory government has witnessed 13 years of mismanagement but since the referendum they have truly become 'the pits'. The only one of them I have any time for is Rory Stewart and he knows he is in the wrong party and knows it.

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If you’re coming with a particular bias then yes it is the worst…. Question if these 13 years of Tory rule have been the worst, why was the regime prior to the 13 years changed if things were good?

It could have had something to do with the Tories, abetted by the right wing press, managing to blame Labour for a global financial crisis?