So, and this isn’t an attempt at discrediting THE Referendum...was there any point?Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy_Faber
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So, and this isn’t an attempt at discrediting THE Referendum...was there any point?Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy_Faber
Many. Amongst which, The (slim) silent majority found their voice and the ‘powers that be’ at last realised that if they went too far, the ‘idiots’ would f@ck em over good and proper, regardless of party allegiance. Happened to the conservatives, happened to labour, happened to EU, indirectly it happened to the cosyness that was Obama politicsQuote:
Originally Posted by ramAnag
Thats not true though is it? I mean 37% of the electorate who actually voted for Brexit isn't a majority silent or otherwise and with Brexit, its the idiots that have been ****ed, over by the real elite that is ex pat multi billionaires who are looking for a low tax light touch regulation economy to make more money and exploit the useful idiots even more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy_Faber
In fact one could argue the "powers that be" certainly those of a right of centre persuasion have realised both in the UK and the USA that there are sufficient "useful idiots" out there who can be conned quite simply by telling them what they want to hear, rather than what they need to hear so that the "powers that be" can "go to far" as you put it.
So far from the silent majority finding their voice, they have actually been silenced whilst politics and good the governance of the country is in the hands of incompetent self serving fools.
And you call me idealistic!Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy_Faber
You’ve recognised that the vast majority of the electorate had insufficient knowledge to offer an informed opinion/vote but now claim that the ‘silent majority’ - aka in this case actual minority - ‘found their voice’.
You make it sound almost heroic, but as has been pointed out...that just isn’t true.
I won’t use the emotive and self defeating term ‘idiots’ but, substituting some combination of the words, naive, gullible, misguided, easily led and prejudiced, Swale is spot on...all that has happened is that we are more isolated than at any time in living memory and we have indeed surrendered governance of this country into ‘the hands of incompetent self serving fools’.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramAnag
As you might guess, I don't agree
The vast majority of the electorate DID have sufficient knowledge to offer an informed opinion, that knowledge was that the issues and potential outcomes hadn't been made clear and based on that their opinion SHOULD have been 'The issues and outcomes aren't clear enough, therefore I will vote for the status quo'.
HOWEVER, such rationality never came into it. The population were given a vote and did with it what they wished
some of your descriptions of those who voted (in both directions) may be accurate (certainly more so than Lord Swale's bile) but you clearly didn't/don't get out enough to realise there was (and still is) a genuine unrest with 'the way things are' amongst what is still the biggest demographic group in the country, who, not wanting to go on wrecking sprees such as we saw last year, see their 'moment' as being at the ballot box not, for instance, Bristol Harbour.
And thats just a silly, bitter comment that I would expect Lord Swale to make but not you to endorse - logically, the Brexit result would have been delivered for the same 'hands' whichever way it went so in that respect it was a net nil outcomeQuote:
Originally Posted by ramAnag
You do have an interestingly short termist view of everything rA. We have not "surrendered governance of the country..." but we have for the time being got the "fools" as you describe them (whether I agree with the description is irrelevant here). A surrender of governance (or government?) is a way more serious issue which, if anything, we did back in 1973 without realising it as it wasnt on the agenda at the time.
Said group of fools have been in power since 2010, when Brexit was just a conceptual babe in arms and then very much a non political / cross political party question. The surrender is in fact down to incompetent domestic opposition failing to wrest power, or even put up a semi decent fight to regain power. You are just blaming Brexit for what you see as an unacceptable domestic political situation because it suits your agenda.
In fact brexit was always an issue splitting the major parties, before, during and after the referendum. Neither party seemed to want to become the party of brexit (or remain) - here I ignore the Libdems as an irrelevance - until the conservatives either (a) stood up to the plate to deliver the nations need, (b) acted whilst others dithered (c) risked alienating their own MPs / Membership / support by selecting a side to support and labour (a) were indecisive and concerned about loss of support whichever way they jumped (b) were never going to be pro brexit as the tories had grabbed that ground etc etc. We all know the arguments.
so no, we have not lost governance but we may have been subject to a short term opportunistic power grab: the Tories paying the game better than Labour who dithered
Back in 1973 I was pretty vocal, as a 19 year old, saying that the end game was a Federal Europe, not just a free market. I was called young, stupid and naive. Some may say that the only change is that I'm no longer young. Point is, I was right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone
Ditto, I was equally unhappy at that prospect - I remember a debate at school where I was speaking against joining particularly on this very issue. Like you I am just older and perhaps less principled!Quote:
Originally Posted by MadAmster
Good for you being so ‘politically aware’ at that age, and if more 19 year olds in 2016 were so, we would have got a more acceptable (although not necessarily different) answerQuote:
Originally Posted by MadAmster
Me at 19 I was only vocal about how good Back In Black was, and like you I was proved right