Sorry UTM but unless you supply some type of evidence then all you say is just opinions , hearsay or fake-news stories. As I said, provide the evidence and I will genuinely read it and if convinced, I will join the ban wagon.Quote:
Originally Posted by upthemaggies
What do you want me to do? Perform a live autopsy on a zoom chat?Quote:
Originally Posted by BanjoPie
We all know how it works, stats and graphs that back up your claim are evidence, stats and graphs that don't can be dismissed with the quote ""Lies, damned lies, and statistics", Trading stats, graphs and links back and forth also just gets boring and tedious for everybody else, see Andy v Jampie on the Ukraine thread. Anything that isn't BBC/Guardian is dismissed as Right Wing and if it's not right wing MSM then it's dismissed as "just somebody on the internet, you must be a flat earther too, ha ha ha".
Above all it requires me going back and doing the work and finding the material and interviews I did a year ago when the battle has now been won.
Mostly my opinion is based on trusting the advice of an elderly relative I've only got to know properly in recent years who spent his life working as a psychiatrist who therefore knows a thing or two as to how pharma operates and he was quite dismayed how many of the family buckled once vax passports came in.
I did wonder in the middle of it all, who - if we're all still here in decade's time - would be the last person on here to defend pharma and the WHO etc as it all begins to unravel and the truth finally begins to come out. After your last post I can probably rule you out, it's probably going to be Jampie or the WEF chap.
Sorry again UTM but if I said ‘there is intelligent life on Mars” - would you believe me?. Perhaps we should just stick to posts on football (Notts in particular) to avoid any arguments. I respect your right to have your opinions but I will pass on them if thats ok with you. COYP’sQuote:
Originally Posted by upthemaggies
So you have no evidence (you've provided none whatsoever for any of your claims so far) and now you've resorted to childishly misquoting me when I take the time to lay out the facts. I think that reflects poorly on you TBH, which is a shame.Quote:
Originally Posted by upthemaggies
I've got huge respect for your football opinions, but on the matter of vaccines you are wrong and the lies you're spreading could lead to someone's death.
To be clear I am not accusing you of lying. There's nothing you've said in any of your posts that I haven't heard before, most of it years ago, and in all that time not a shred of evidence has ever emerged for any of it. It's the same garbage pushed by fringe anti vaxxers in Australia, and the US, and everywhere else. In Australia the facebook groups that were pushing this nonsense abruptly began pushing pro-russian lies at the outset of the invasion of Ukraine last year. Let that sink in!
Since you're accusing me of being a gullible fool, let me lay it out for you. For the record, the only things published by pharma companies that I even read are the independent studies they commission in order to get their drugs past the FDA and equivalent authorities. During a normal year I probably read 100-200 scientific papers on various topics. During the pandemic those numbers skewed heavily into the medical field, and I read pretty well everything I could find about Covid-19, vaccine effectiveness and the relevant immunology. I followed the statistics daily for much of the pandemic (until almost all of our population were vaccinated) and I'm well acquainted with the transmission rates, hospitalisation rates and death rates for vaccinated vs. unvaccinated.
I also read all of the publications on the matter by the TGA here in Australia (the medical/scientific/governing body for drugs like the FDA in the US) about the vaccines, what was approved and what was recommended.
When it came time to decide whether to have a vaccine, do you know what I did? I asked my GP. Because he's the only person I know qualified to give that advice.
If large numbers of people start dropping dead due to vaccines I will say "this new data proves I was wrong", and probably drop dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by upthemaggies
The odds of this happening are essentially zero. There have now been many, many billions of doses given and a tiny handful of deaths. In Australia AZ was withdrawn from being given to young people because it killed a few, and there were cautions for young men particularly about the mRNA ones because we had a few cases of heart inflammation from it.
Meanwhile, Covid killed has 21,000 Australians and counting. In per capita terms, the UK has had more than four times that number, because more of the UK population was exposed to the virus prior to vaccines. And yes, that was due to Boris's idiotic early policies.
In other words, on those numbers Vaccines have saved the lives of at least 60,000 more Australians than people in the UK, because we just weren't exposed to the virus much before vaccines.
The reality is that over and above an entirely Covid-19 naive population, we've saved more like 110,000 lives with vaccines. We had (I rechecked) 14 vaccine related deaths. Those are the real numbers. These are the facts. If the facts where different I would form a very different opinion based on them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jampie
And what about Africa, people were predicting absolute catastrophe there, the least vaccinated continent and they breezed through it compared to the rest of the world. Yes there is context that goes with that, but the same applies to everything and people leave out the stuff that's inconvenient and highlight the stuff that is. Australia is a smaller population than the UK and out of the way, it isn't the hub of activity with the migration Europe has, it's presumably a lot healthier too. There are obvious reasons why it was easier to lockdown there and keep the virus out.
The vaccines have been withdrawn here now for all but the most vulnerable, which is a joke because the numbers still rolling up their sleeves had fallen off a cliff. Many people stopped at two saying "no more, that's me done", more stopped at 3. Unlike you, buried in the paper work, they could see what was happening around them. You will ultimately be proved wrong, I've no doubt about it, the tide turned against this insanity a long time ago but Australia is some way behind for obvious reasons.
been following this, another great discussion! Thanks for taking the time to provide context, Jampie.
you do raise some great questions, UTM, but I'd need far more reliable evidence than you're comfortable with before I'd abandon the general thrust of mainstream thought. Still, it's unusual and heartening to read such a CALM and respectful debate online. RFK jr is way out there on his pro Putin anti-vax stances, hard to take seriously imo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mud Pie
My last but one reply to Jampie wasn't very calm and respectful because I'm getting frustrated with people asking for evidence when there's no disputing these vaccines were given emergency use to be rolled out, if they were safe they wouldn't have needed that to get the green light and they would have not needed to prove there was not one single treatment available. They were rushed out with a trial cut short at the early stages, wasn't it called "operation warpspeed"?
No side has any proper evidence because there is no long term data, I'm sick of going round in circles with this, the onus is on the vaccines to prove their safety and all we've got for now is noisy data 2 years into the experiment (since younger people were given it) and we're all trying to look for patterns or avoid seeing them which are dismissed as more noise from those who don't want to see it and conclusive evidence by those that do. It's early warning signals for now which could become too obvious to dismiss later down the line.
There is no doubt people have died of this vax but what about the injuries and the long term effects of those injuries? What about cell damage from manufactured spike that repair in organs other than the heart? We can't see that problem until later because with each repair you lose capacity to repair in future.
Vaccines have been taken off the market for far fewer deaths and deemed unsafe and I think they aren't withdrawn on a ratio basis, x number of deaths should deem it unsafe regardless of how many doses are given, but they got away with it because "there was no other treatment".
The other main evidence was all the false claims that then had to be down-graded and down graded again - stops spread to limits spread to doesn't do anything within 3 months, same with severity. They simply cannot be trusted.
You're entirely wrong. The roll-out of vaccines especially in the most populated areas helped a lot (though I would say that, I guess, since that was literally my job) - but Covid still had a massive impact in Africa. The statistics didn't keep up, but talking to my doctor friends in East and West Africa painted an appalling picture at times.Quote:
Originally Posted by upthemaggies
Nobody is saying everything was perfect. Everything was done in a rush. EUAs were necessary to get jabs into arms - though Pfizer and Moderna's vaccines now have full FDA approval.
And all evidence suggests that adverse events from the vaccines are still less frequent and less damaging than those from being infected by Covid. I was lucky enough not to lose anyone close to Covid but with relatives suffering from Long Covid, I really don't buy the story of a mild disease that you're selling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by upthemaggies
I'm not half us up on things as some of the people here, but I do think that faced with lots of unknowns, most of the vaccines success on the 'first do no harm' stakes was pretty good. The longer the world went without any protection, the more people suffered after all.
As to long term consequences... maybe watch the trends as you say, prepare for the wost, but see for sure before shouting the sky is falling because that way chickens lie.