Election Year or Fear!

[Andy_Faber]

I probably know more about it from both sides but we’ll let that one go for the moment.

I said a couple of weeks ago that, having had cause to visit a very prestigious local Independent School recently, I was mightily impressed by the facilities on offer and while my motivation wasn’t jealousy, my aspiration was ultimately for all children to have access to such facilities in the same way that, ideally, I want all people to have access to the same quality of cancer treatment/care as the King and his daughter in law.

Given the existing mindset you’re right…that doesn’t seem possible, but the imbalance has, imo, got to begin to be addressed. Why do people send their children to fee paying independent schools? Because they are all too often dissatisfied with the facilities/resources on offer at the state equivalent. Yet, at this moment in time, such an alternative is only available to somewhere between 5-7% of all pupils.

So well in excess of 90% of our children are receiving a relatively sub standard education.

MA asks who is in favour of charging VAT on school fees, possibly as one of the means of addressing the balance.

On the basis that choosing to attend an Independent school is a luxury that relatively few can afford I would come down on the side of being in favour of such taxation.

Then again, on the basis that those who are paying for fee paying schooling are actually reducing the burden on the taxpayer already by removing their children from the system to have them educated - at their own expense - elsewhere…I can see how they would feel unfairly done to.

But then (then) again. Q. Where do the teachers who work in the Independent sector come from? A. They come from the state, because, as far as I know, there are no Independent training colleges or Universities set up to provide the teaching resources explicitly for Independent schools …so they are ‘poached’ /cherry picked from the state.

Of course many young teachers will look at the endless playing fields, beautifully resourced IT suites, school’s own theatre facilities, magnificent science labs etc and think…I’ll have some of that. So three years of partially state funded training (in my day four years on a degree course) goes straight to the independent sector.

Can that be right? I don’t think so and while I’m willing to be swayed either way on the VAT issue…as far as funding future teachers (and doctors and nurses) is concerned I’d make all the qualification costs entirely free on the condition that those who qualified then served a period of at least ten years working within state schools (or the NHS - please delete accordingly). Should they then wish to transfer to either the private health or education sector within that ten year period I’d then make either them, or their new employers, liable for the cost of all the training which enabled their initial qualification.

It might all go some way to restoring a more equitable balance.

Thanks, but wrong on one point, fee paying schools are only USED by 7% of children, they are AVAILABLE to many more, no idea of the percentage but it’s significant. You paint it like an elite privilige and in no way is it (just), I know of many folk far from ‘the elite’ who’ve made financial sacrifices elsewhere in their lives for the sake of their children. Not ignoring the genuinely poor in saying this

Note that the VAT thing is IMO just spite from Labour, it puts exceptional education out of reach of the normal family who just make ends meet to pay fees, it will have no impact on your ‘elite’ who will just lose the 20% in the rounding. And the IFS who you seem to trust have confirmed it will raise bugger all in absolute terms

[Andy_Faber]

On the subject of private schools, who is for, and who is against, charging VAT on private school fees?

It's an option people with enough money can choose. Yes, there are some middle income families that scrimp and scrape in order to be able to pay the fees for their offspring but the vast majority of pupils at these schools come from the richer households. Should they be exempt from VAT?

IMO no because it feels like a spiteful tax aimed at the votes of spiteful people, it won’t raise enough to make the difference labour are intimating and it will have less and less effect the more ‘elite’ the fee paying family, so ironically it’s a tax on the (relatively) poor

[ramAnag]

‘Spiteful tax’ and ‘spiteful people’ seems more than a little harsh to me, AF, although I can see both sides of the argument.
It may also, imo, be a tad naive of you to criticise me ‘painting it as an elite privilege’. I’m sure there are a minority of less well healed people in Independent schools, in fact I know there are…however they are likely to have won scholarships which will cover many of the fees and, generally speaking, Independent/Public schools are establishments that cater for the better off 5 ‘ish’ % as the fact that, I think, 27 of our 56 Prime Ministers have come from just two such schools - Eton and Harrow (with 20 coming from the former alone) would indicate.

[ramAnag]

‘Spiteful tax’ and ‘spiteful people’ seems more than a little harsh to me, AF, although I can see both sides of the argument.
It may also, imo, be a tad naive of you to criticise me ‘painting it as an elite privilege’. I’m sure there are a minority of less well healed people in Independent schools, in fact I know there are…however they are likely to have won scholarships which will cover many of the fees and, generally speaking, Independent/Public schools are establishments that cater for the better off 5 ‘ish’ % as the fact that, I think, 27 of our 56 Prime Ministers have come from just two such schools - Eton and Harrow (with 20 coming from the former alone) would indicate.

P.S. Apologies…no idea why this appears twice.

[Trickytreesreds]

Privately-educated Arron Banks has given millions of pounds to a political party/private company led and owned by privately-educated Nigel Farage, privately-educated Richard Tice and privately-educated Isabel Oakeshott. Because Britain needs an anti-establishment alternative, apparently.

interesting -

A 'British' billionaire (£29.7 billion to be precise) who lives in tax exile in Monaco was today urging the British people to vote Labour.
He has also made friends with Sir Keir Starmer, who he wants to pay millions of tax payers money to fund a new stadium for his new little plaything (Manchester United FC).

Obviously a working class thing

[Trickytreesreds]

No we were both right and I’m not up for another hair splitting ruck so subject closed

Surely you can’t mean ‘the best’, it just wouldn’t be affordable, and I don’t mean a need to pay fees, I mean staffing and infrastructure. The workforce would need to at least double and that’s just an easy example.

However as you say you know more about it from the state side than I do so I won’t pretend to be in the know

Careful, you're bringing up his former profession again, he doesn't like that mentioning and goes ballastic

[ramAnag]

Careful, you're bringing up his former profession again, he doesn't like that mentioning and goes ballastic

‘Ballastic’? Or even ballistic. As if. Sometimes, like now, it’s relevant…sometimes totally not…that’s all. We’ve been talking education a little today…try and keep up. What’s with this ‘working class’ thing you’ve suddenly started up anyway?