If there is a second EU referendum

[ramAnag]

Sorry the P.S. to Angry was, obviously, meant to be at the end but I messed up and fell foul of the new editing rules.

[ramspride]

Patronising to say the least ramspride...so I'll answer in kind. Perhaps they didn't teach percentages when you were at school but I'd love you to explain to me how 36% represents a majority/the voice of the people/ or whatever you want to call it.

P.S. Angry, it's not about it 'going my way'...it really isn't. If I thought there was a genuine majority in favour of 'Leave' I'd suck it up and just carry on.


If only 36% or so of 'the people' want to 'Leave' then doesn't that imply that 64% either actively don't or at least didn't want to enough to go out and vote.

Maybe the 30% or so who didn't actually vote are to 'blame', but tomorrow's demonstration is, I imagine, about the fact that we are about to be led down this ruinous road by a minority who believed a pack of lies put about by an already discredited politician (or two). Perhaps 'Democracy' wasn't a concept you were taught about at school...it means 'majority rule' and, at the risk of labouring the point - which I probably overstepped a long time ago - having the support of 36% of the 'people' (aka electorate) can never, when there are only two options, represent a democratic majority.

36% where did you get that figure from? I take it you mean that 36% of the total population but how can you count that when they didn't vote by their own choice. The result of anything is about those taking part. As for saying 'we are about to be led down this ruinous road by a minority who believed a pack of lies put about by an already discredited politician (or two)' I and many others listened to both sides of the debate, yes both sides did lie at times, did our own research and came to our own decisions. As I have stated on here before the EU is unelected and if you don't agree with them you can't vote them out (fact not lies) The UK are the 2nd biggest contributor financially into the EU where 11 countries take money in and the rest take money out (fact not lies) The majority of the countries in the EU are failing, Italy 60% of the under 25s unemployed, Spain 40% (fact not lies). The concept of trade between the EU countries excellent idea (fact) The concept of enforcing laws on counties not acceptable idea. Anyway we probably won't have to leave the EU. Once Germany and France realise how much money they will have to contribute to back up Greece, Italy and Spain the EU will collapse.

[southernram22]

surely ramanag you are only looking at it the way you want to see it and tbh being a sore loser my opinion . any government that would overturn a majority vote would be brave stupid a bit of both and facing riots and a general election. would you like to focus on the apparent financial meltdown the chancellor promised and all the banks packing up and leaving london . or would you like to keep on commenting through rose tinted glasses on the obvious thing we have voted to leave spout off all you like but were still out . the pros for in out have gone .we are as a country stronger than we obviously thought.

[roger_ramjet]

I think the point is that whilst only 36% voted to leave, still less voted to remain. We have to do one or the other, and you cannot assume that the abstentions would have all voted one way or the other. Personally I suspect more remain minded people abstained because of the more low key and ineffective campaign run by remain, but its only a hunch. The population overall probably still would be close to 50-50 had they all been forced to vote which is hardly a compelling result either way.

The fault lies in the way the referendum vote was defined - in a hugely marginal decision making process then maybe it should not have been 50-50. Maybe it should have required a minimum 10% majority of votes cast plus some provision for regional diversity (eg Scotland) in order to trigger a leave. But it didn't. Overconfidence by the decision makers who set up the voting mechanism and who maybe figured a vote to remain would come to pass given the backing of the two major parties.

So it is what it is - yes its a minority decision and yes it could create further constitutional crises in Scotland and Ireland, but if you want democracy, you have to count the cost. Even though I voted remain, I still want no part of a federal europe and/or political union, so thare are some benefits to what I think is an exit decision largely made on specious grounds.

[macstheman]

This is democracy at work, you are almost always faced with the situation of voting for something you support but at the expense of something you don't support. In this case the single market vs total integration economically and politically. Many many years ago during my college days we were asked to pick a party we would support in a General Election and explain why. Party a) presented a 10 point manifesto which included 9 very desirable aims ie. All homeless housed within 5 years, likewise poverty eliminated etc etc but the 9th point was 'declare war on Russia' (this was during the Cold War); Party b) proposals basically showed no interest in public welfare and basically said sod the poor but the 10th was 'seek a resolution to the Cold War and negotiate harmonious relationship with Russia'. It was pointed out to us that that was the essence of a parliamentary system.Obviously it's exaggerated but which way would you vote??

[ramAnag]

Okay rp...no, it's not 36% of the 'total population', it's 36% of the electorate. Roger's maths is doubtless better than mine but...slightly more than 72% of the electorate actually voted of which slightly less than 52% voted 'Leave'. That's approximately 36% of the electorate I think.
Put another way, which thankfully doesn't involve percentages, the electorate totals 46,501,241 people. Of those 17,410,742 voted to 'Leave', 16,141,241 voted to 'Remain' and 12,949,258 didn't or couldn't vote.
You're absolutely right, more people actively voted to Leave than to Remain but...when the figures are all added up...17,410,742 voted to Leave while 29,090,499 didn't.
That being the case, I cannot for the life of me understand why 29,090,499 should be directed to merrily follow this path to potential disaster by 17,410, 742, or how it is truly democratic and that's also why I believe that if we're going to rely on a referendum then the winning margin should be at least 51% of the electorate i.e. in this case...approximately 23,500,000.

southern...of course I'm looking at it the way I see it...don't we all? That's the point of having an opinion isn't it...but I am also trying to be totally objective with the figures. 'Sore loser'? Can see why you think that tbf and if I was arguing about a sporting result that hadn't gone my way then you'd probably be right, but this is so much more important and I honestly believe that truth has already taken a back seat in what has become a victory for ill conceived populism over democracy.

RR...wouldn't argue with anything you've said other than to reiterate that over 29,000,000 didn't vote to 'Leave' and to suggest that with the pound continuing to fall, the economic outlook suddenly uncertain, the reported increase in racist hate crime on top of the murder of one, seemingly very decent, pro-Remain MP we need to tread very carefully.

This is not, imo, an act of self determination but an act of national self harm which is already likely to lead to the break up of the U.K.
I can understand many of your misgivings about the EU, but is that really what you voted for RP?

[AngryRam]

Sorry the P.S. to Angry was, obviously, meant to be at the end but I messed up and fell foul of the new editing rules.

We've had a vote and 36% of us reckon you are rubbish at this internet thingy...

[AngryRam]

I am just waiting for Swaley to tell us about the 350 million quid going to the NHS...
I reckon it will be before midnight.

[AngryRam]

I saw a German tank in the High Street earlier.... Is this a sign?

[roger_ramjet]

Oh tank, thought you said skank