OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Trickytreesreds]

Value your opinion Roger and accept that you have a fuller understanding as far as the economic side of things is concerned. Also seems like Andy is a sensible and well informed fella.
On the other hand, interesting that Tricky - who may imo be misguided but isn't daft - when asked to provide examples about the EU interfering with our traditions and heritage tried to turn the debate into one entirely about immigration. Can't help feeling that's exactly what happened with the referendum itself and, at the end of the day, the result was never more than advisory so, given that the result was so close and only 'won' by 37-% (have I mentioned that? ) would it that bad if the legal boys now conclude that ultimately Parliament still has the final word?

310...wow. Saw Bobby Simpson score 311 once, in my first Test Match.

Ramanag with respect, the accusation was- "show me how the EU has changed our culture".
I did, the countries changed unbelievably in 15 years
The videos show this. The EU insists on free movement and Blair was the icing on the cake, with no restrictions on East European poor countries.-
The strongest evidence for conspiracy comes from one of Labour’s own. Andrew Neather, a previously unheard-of speechwriter for Blair, Straw and Blunkett, popped up with an article in the Evening Standard in October 2009 which gave the game away.

Immigration, he wrote, ‘didn’t just happen; the deliberate policy of Ministers from late 2000…was to open up the UK to mass immigration’.

He was at the heart of policy in September 2001, drafting the landmark speech by the then Immigration Minister Barbara Roche, and he reported ‘coming away from some discussions with the clear sense that the policy was intended - even if this wasn’t its main purpose - to rub the Right’s nose in diversity and render their arguments out of date’.

Misguided anarchy from both of these arrogant cocks.
Once the door opened, the EU has pushed and insisted on it.

[roger_ramjet]

would it that bad if the legal boys now conclude that ultimately Parliament still has the final word?

310...wow. Saw Bobby Simpson score 311 once, in my first Test Match.

Yes it would be bad since it would mean that the entire referendum process has been devalued to being nothing more than an opinion poll.

and I remember that game just - from snatched pieces of radio commentary. Manchester I believe and Ken Barrington got 250+ in reply

[ramAnag]

That's about all it's fit for imo. Useless excercise especially with a minority 'victory'.

You're right, Old Trafford...52 years ago next week. How the hell did that happen?
Test matches were very different in those days...all rain coats, trilbies, meat paste sandwiches and respectful clapping. As I remember it Simpson batted for two and a bit days...I arrived with my Dad and he was almost immediately out. Story of my life! Also remember a very young, very nervous, bespectacled Geoffrey Boycott in what must have been one of his earliest Tests.

[ramAnag]

Tricky...go back to #282...the question to Ramspride, which he has chosen not to answer, was how is there evidence of us being ruled by Brussels in our 'day to day lives'.
You have chosen to try and hijack the debate to turn it into a discussion of immigration and some 'plot' that a variety of those opposed to immigration regularly drag up. That's your view which you're entitled to but, as with the referendum, that isn't really what this thread or my question are about.

[Trickytreesreds]

Tricky...go back to #282...the question to Ramspride, which he has chosen not to answer, was how is there evidence of us being ruled by Brussels in our 'day to day lives'.
You have chosen to try and hijack the debate to turn it into a discussion of immigration and some 'plot' that a variety of those opposed to immigration regularly drag up. That's your view which you're entitled to but, as with the referendum, that isn't really what this thread or my question are about.

Sorry, but did you or did you not ask this?
You can't pick and chose, what your questions means. I took it quite literally.

Mistakes have been made and there's things I'd change but give me an example - preferably more than one - of how our 'heritage' is being 'stripped' away on a day to day basis by the EU. How have the EU diluted our culture? Where's your evidence?

Sorry that you don't agree with me, but this country has changed drastically due to mass movement.
It may not bother you, that's your prerogative.
But it bothers a great many people in places like Kent and Lincolnshire. That's their prerogative.

[swaledale]

Jesus Swale, if someone hit you with an argument in cast iron, you'd deny it.
1. Sovereignty is important. The country itself decides what it wants, not some arsewipe of a bureaucrat in Brussels.
2. The tea bag example was in the same vein as angrys banana example. Paper trails and rule writers have made it, that if you wrote all the regs down on A4 paper, it would stretch for 130 miles end to end. They employ 1000's of paper shufflers and move this circus between two cities just to pacify the French costing millions a year.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ng-circus.html
3. The EU is negotiating with these elites for gain. Things TTIP, will effect the NHS, badly. That bothers me. It should you as well.
4. The Euro has caused mass unemployment. It brought up the standard of living for economies not ready for it and unable to get into the black. Hence Greece for one. Buying goods they could ill afford and the debt crash destroying the economy and jobs.
They are now caught in a cycle of austerity, and their bollox gripped by Germany, firmly.
5. Given a boost to UK GDP at what price? Cheap labour to exploit to make individuals richer. Our young will go the way of the crappy countries in the EU soon. Unskilled/lost/and unemployed. They struggle to get a job and gain experience, because an east European is prepared to work for less and is experienced. If you believe that's good long term for this country, then god help you.
I have interviewed loads of youngsters in tears, trying to get a job.
The same problem of free movement is hitting these kids. Schools over stretched and so education suffers.
6. Out sourcing? The EU gives grants to these ****ty countries to get our factorys over there. Why? Because they want their unified Continent under one flag. Its part of the plan.
7. I read and gather my info from every where. You obviously don't and probably believe Camerons hand book of the glorious EU.
8. You ignored crime. It has and is still rising. Are you aware that 9% of the prison population is Polish alone? Half of foreign nation prisoners, are east european. Romania enjoying a 3,882 drop in prisoner figures since it joined the EU. Latvia’s prison numbers have fallen by 3,092 while Poland’s have decreased by 2,997.
You may think it's OK but I don't, especially as people have died in this country at the hands of known criminals who have slipped in because they can.
Try telling the families of them how wonder it is. Not that you'll take that on board anyway Swale. I take comfort in the fact that your opinion on here is the minority. The vote tells me, That would be about right.

No point trying harder. None so blind as those that won't see.

I'm not blind just not won over by you cherry picking information that supports your view and presenting it without context.

In a later post you've quoted a guy who worked for Blair saying it was the democratically elected Sovereign UK government that allowed mass immigration, which if true - I know Blair cocked thing sup by not adopting the 7 year rule before free movement for newly joined states citizens was allowed - means that your blaming the EU for a UK government policy, which is something I've tried to point out to you. Much of what you blame the EU for can be laid squarely at the door of UK governments!

The EU has paid millions in grants to the UK to build infrastructure and factories over here.. part of the Grand Pan or an attempt to stimulate the economies in deprived areas? Depend how much of a conspiracy theorist you are I guess!

I didn't ignore crime - I wasn't aware of the fact that eastern europe had emptied its jails and the that all those criminals had come over here resulting in a huge crime wave!! Probably because it hasnt happend!

Your desperation shows when you say "crappy countries", be proud of your own country but assuming we are superior is arrogant and obviously wrong because their citizens are better skilled , harder working and more reliable than a proportion of the UK's, but hey its good to have a scapegoat to blame when one is feeling put upon? Its a familiar approach, successful for a while in 30's germany I believe?

A crime is a crime, who commits it is irrelevant and if a Latvian committed a crime against me, I'd no more blame latvians, than I would if the person was from Nottingham! But maybe I am a little more sophisticated in that respect? Obviously personalising it is a sign that despite your comitment to the faith, you arent entirely convinced that the massive gamble that is Brexit will work out for you.

I can confidently forecast that most who voted Brexit wont see one advantage to them, though they may see some disadvantages but hey I'm sure you and the rest will think it worth it!

[ramAnag]

Fair enough Tricky...my original question was the one to Ramspride which I have referred to.
You have sought to put the impact of immigration at the centre of the discussion and possibly confused 'change' with 'dilution'.
I don't dispute that the country, and indeed the World, are very different places to the one I grew up in. Some of those changes are for the better, some for the worse and many, imo, nothing to do with the EU.
This thread though is about the impact of the EU and the Brexit vote. The question of immigration is undoubtedly pertinent but it is not, when discussing either the EU or Brexit, of overwhelming relevance even though that is what many who voted 'Leave' have apparently been encouraged to think.

P.S. We'll have no red writing on this site thanks.

[swaledale]

health and saftey laws are entirely brussels written . any criminal we want to deport can appeal to european court of justice and so on

Health and safety laws are not entirely from the EU and the UK chooses to apply them more rigourously than other Eu countries, not a bad thing IMO but a decision of the UK government.

So the Uk has to comply with human rights laws? Yes they may be blunt in some cases but a sweeping they stop us deporting criminals is not true and anyway dont you want to live in a civilised country that respects human rights???

[swaledale]

Fair enough Tricky...my original question was the one to Ramspride which I have referred to.
You have sought to put the impact of immigration at the centre of the discussion and possibly confused 'change' with 'dilution'.
I don't dispute that the country, and indeed the World, are very different places to the one I grew up in. Some of those changes are for the better, some for the worse and many, imo, nothing to do with the EU.
This thread though is about the impact of the EU and the Brexit vote. The question of immigration is undoubtedly pertinent but it is not, when discussing either the EU or Brexit, of overwhelming relevance even though that is what many who voted 'Leave' have apparently been encouraged to think.

P.S. We'll have no red writing on this site thanks.

Plus immigration didnt start with the EU and globalisation and technology have changed things far more significantly and no matter what the more conservative of us think, change is going to happen more quickly and whilst we can debate endlessly as to whether its for the better or for the worse (a bit of both is generally true) voting to leve the EU will not halt it!

[AngryRam]

I'm not blind just not won over by you cherry picking information that supports your view and presenting it without context.

In a later post you've quoted a guy who worked for Blair saying it was the democratically elected Sovereign UK government that allowed mass immigration, which if true - I know Blair cocked thing sup by not adopting the 7 year rule before free movement for newly joined states citizens was allowed - means that your blaming the EU for a UK government policy, which is something I've tried to point out to you. Much of what you blame the EU for can be laid squarely at the door of UK governments!

The EU has paid millions in grants to the UK to build infrastructure and factories over here.. part of the Grand Pan or an attempt to stimulate the economies in deprived areas? Depend how much of a conspiracy theorist you are I guess!

I didn't ignore crime - I wasn't aware of the fact that eastern europe had emptied its jails and the that all those criminals had come over here resulting in a huge crime wave!! Probably because it hasnt happend!

Your desperation shows when you say "crappy countries", be proud of your own country but assuming we are superior is arrogant and obviously wrong because their citizens are better skilled , harder working and more reliable than a proportion of the UK's, but hey its good to have a scapegoat to blame when one is feeling put upon? Its a familiar approach, successful for a while in 30's germany I believe?

A crime is a crime, who commits it is irrelevant and if a Latvian committed a crime against me, I'd no more blame latvians, than I would if the person was from Nottingham! But maybe I am a little more sophisticated in that respect? Obviously personalising it is a sign that despite your comitment to the faith, you arent entirely convinced that the massive gamble that is Brexit will work out for you.

I can confidently forecast that most who voted Brexit wont see one advantage to them, though they may see some disadvantages but hey I'm sure you and the rest will think it worth it!

I have no words....