What is the point of having a lavish academy then?

[jamesdad]

I agree with all Furberstreet says. Keeping the academy just in case we produce another great player in years to come will starve the first team of money ( they are the priority for the club ) We have not produced any top players for the past several years that would go straight into a premiership team so lets stop dreaming about the academy and get into the real world,
As mentioned before there needs to be a comprehensive look and overall of every department within the club. Targets need to be set within departments and if not reached staff will have to leave . Cruel but this is the modern way of working now. The club has been run a family basis for far to long and needs to sort its self out.
Would be interesting to see what the wage bill for the staff at the academy is and What DG gets as well

[thnhouse]

I did not understand why we signed Dagnall. The drop to League 2 seemed a perfect opportunity to give Saunders a decent run in the first team, not least to confirm whether or not he can make the grade. If not, release him. Udoh was thrown into the deep end last season and did well. Now he cannot get a game for the first team despite scoring goals regularly for the U23s. We are only scoring a goal per game and the Lowe/Dagnall combination is clearly not delivering.

As for the Academy, I supported it wholeheartedly for years, but these days it takes a disproportionate amount of funding from the Club to the detriment of the first team and seems to be very much the top priority despite any relegation to non-league meaning its end. Other teams manage without one or make do with a Category 3 academy. Why not Crewe? Times have changed and the once and mighty business model is no longer worth it. A root and branch overhaul of the Club is required, and difficult decisions have to be made. Whether the present Board is capable of doing more than deciding on Bourbon biscuits or Custard Creams for their meetings is an open question.

What would the actual saving be from downgrading from a Cat 2 to a Cat 3?
I understand that there are differences in terms of what facilities the club has to offer and the amount of coaches the club has to have, but what would the actual cost drop be?
What are the advantages of having a Cat 2 rather than a Cat 3?
From reading the EPPP it seems to suggest that the main advantage is that you compete against better youth teams and that it affects the amount of compensation we're due if a player gets poached. I'd also say that it's a major selling point to young players when choosing where to go.



Can we stop touting round the idea that the academy doesn't pay for itself , it clearly does? Add up player sales for the last 10 years, it comes to over 15 million. That is easily more than the academy has cost us and we're not counting the amount of money it saves us as the young players are on a third of the wages of an established pro.

What the concern is for me is that we have a manager that is destroying the development of our youngsters, since Davis started we've not had one young player establish himself and leave for money. This calls Davis into question not the academy.

[bigroof]

What would the actual saving be from downgrading from a Cat 2 to a Cat 3?
I understand that there are differences in terms of what facilities the club has to offer and the amount of coaches the club has to have, but what would the actual cost drop be?
What are the advantages of having a Cat 2 rather than a Cat 3?
From reading the EPPP it seems to suggest that the main advantage is that you compete against better youth teams and that it affects the amount of compensation we're due if a player gets poached. I'd also say that it's a major selling point to young players when choosing where to go.



Can we stop touting round the idea that the academy doesn't pay for itself , it clearly does? Add up player sales for the last 10 years, it comes to over 15 million. That is easily more than the academy has cost us and we're not counting the amount of money it saves us as the young players are on a third of the wages of an established pro.

What the concern is for me is that we have a manager that is destroying the development of our youngsters, since Davis started we've not had one young player establish himself and leave for money. This calls Davis into question not the academy.

The other difference is the coaching of boys from a younger age. It's not only Dario who would argue that this is important. The FA, in offering a greater subsidy to Category 2 Academies, than to lower categories, obviously feel that such a set-up is to be encouraged.

I doubt it's a simple matter to downgrade either. It's taken a long time to develop the facilities required; some key contracts will be in place. There's a lot of conjecture on the figures involved; on the face of it, the lower costs would suggest a big saving, but would a Category 3 Academy develop enough players to fill, say, half the places in the team?

Without having researched the matter thoroughly, I think there are only a few clubs of a similar size (crowd potential I mean), with a Category 3 Academy, who regularly develop sufficient players of their own to guarantee taking up to half of the first team places. It's usually the case, under Crewe's current set-up, that they will have up to half-a-dozen, sometimes more, home-produced players in the first team; that's part of the reason for running the Academy. In addition, historically at least, some of these players have been sold for decent fees, to help sustain the Academy, or improve it. Some people will complain that the sales don't directly benefit the first team. Another view would be that an improved Academy would indirectly improve the first team, over time. It is this latter view that is disputed - with good evidence of course: the team is in the bottom half of the fourth division!

So, what would a Crewe Alexandra with a downgraded Academy look like? Would the coaching staff required still be populated by ex-Crewe players, as it tends to be now? Would they still show the same loyalty to what would be a different kind of project? They wouldn't be required to run an under 23 squad - a mixed blessing? There would be a residue of coaching expertise left in the Academy; there would be fewer boys, and all those younger boys would be seeking other clubs of Category Two status.

The odds are that the first team manager would need to be looking at a greater number players from elsewhere to form his squad. What size of contracts could be afforded? Would the total of the new wage-bill equal the apparent savings from the lower academy costs? Or exceed them? The better the contracts, the more the chance of challenging for promotion, logically. Could the club afford that?

I believe, in reality, that the 'new' Crewe would still be careful/cautious with their finances. They would be trying to compete against similar-sized clubs, and some bigger ones, as now, for free transfer players, and for those players, maybe young ones, left adrift by Premiership and Championship clubs. Fees paid for players would be few and far between. They would be in much the same boat as they were in 1982. There would be the slight chance, of course, of attracting an ambitious, maverick type manager, who might, just might, bring short term success before moving on.

Some would argue that that would be preferable to running an Academy that they can't afford, in a season where the first team is still in the bottom division, and with no chance of a reprieve should they slip as far as 23rd or 24th by the final day. That is a perfectly valid view. The club would still survive as a National League club. There would still be games to go to.

My own view is that it would just be far less interesting, and offer less hope of greater things. The Academy is still producing good players, but, like thnhouse, I'm of the view that they're not being used or encouraged as well as they might, by the current manager, but that's a different matter.

[MikeSB]

I've yet to see ANY proof that working parents would be prepared to take their kids to ANY academy outside the area where they live as it would be all hassle for them IF there was one just up the road. In fact its my belief that very few of them would know the difference of category? The last time I checked there is a HUGE difference in costs between a Cat2 and Cat3 and something like 150K for Cat3 and we are currently paying 750K and so that would free up a lot of money and why so few lower league clubs have them no matter what the merits of Cat2. Some even decide they don't need ANY academy when there are so many players around without transfer fees being involved. How many local kids go to Cat1 academies being that category is so important? The point has already been made that the objective of the academy was to sell players on that would be PL standard or at least very close so they are prepared to pay big money and so none over the last three and half years and anyone in the current first team that is even close that and the board have to recover that 750 grand PER season but can anyone really argue that 10 years coaching has been on show here these last few years?

[bigroof]

I've yet to see ANY proof that working parents would be prepared to take their kids to ANY academy outside the area where they live as it would be all hassle for them IF there was one just up the road. In fact its my belief that very few of them would know the difference of category? The last time I checked there is a HUGE difference in costs between a Cat2 and Cat3 and something like 150K for Cat3 and we are currently paying 750K and so that would free up a lot of money and why so few lower league clubs have them no matter what the merits of Cat2. Some even decide they don't need ANY academy when there are so many players around without transfer fees being involved. How many local kids go to Cat1 academies being that category is so important? The point has already been made that the objective of the academy was to sell players on that would be PL standard or at least very close so they are prepared to pay big money and so none over the last three and half years and anyone in the current first team that is even close that and the board have to recover that 750 grand PER season but can anyone really argue that 10 years coaching has been on show here these last few years?

I was talking about the parents of the boys aged 8 to 11, who would no longer be coached at a Category Three Crewe. I'm pretty certain that every one of the families currently involved, know that Crewe's is a Category Two Academy; they're not stupid. Even if the cost difference of £600k is correct, that would soon be swallowed up over a few seasons by the need for bigger contracts for the first team squad. Like I say, Mike, it's a viable future, but not one where anyone might expect the team to be doing any better than now.

[MikeSB]

I was talking about the parents of the boys aged 8 to 11, who would no longer be coached at a Category Three Crewe. I'm pretty certain that every one of the families currently involved, know that Crewe's is a Category Two Academy; they're not stupid. Even if the cost difference of £600k is correct, that would soon be swallowed up over a few seasons by the need for bigger contracts for the first team squad. Like I say, Mike, it's a viable future, but not one where anyone might expect the team to be doing any better than now.

Hi Derek, That's far too young..Its a laudable thing to do and so let the clubs with the money do that eg PL..The FA are now talking about banning young kids from heading the ball and so what's next? No tackling because they may break tender legs? Nobody know how kids will develop mentally or physically and lets face it, Dario did fine concentrating on mid ***** anyway when you can see those attributes. Its not just a case of someone being able to pass a ball or dribble or any particular skill as most kids have that ability and so coaching per se is overdone but that is just me and Jimmy Greaves opinion...

Most lower league clubs don't have Cat2 and are of similar size and have to compete on the wages front and unless you can really get a Nick Powell in then academy players will struggle and more especially at L2 when some of us warned it will be tougher than they thought and why the physical presence can outweigh ability. That's proving the case. So maybe changing the manager won't alter that UNLESS the club can free up some money to get the experience needed and that means less for the academy and nobody has yet said NO academy as even non league has them and will always try to encourage kids to come and show any skills they naturally have.

When the training facility becomes more important than the very reason we have existed for over 100 years then someone is not thinking clearly here. Yes it worked when it was novel and new and the PL didn't have money to burn and now they do and so don't need to wait and ManU would think twice about paying 4m for another Nick Powell and just to add that any kid showing real talent can and will be poached long before they get to signing Pro forms here..

If we had the money like they do, fine but we don't and we have seen what that can do if nothing changes..2 wins in half a season is no way to carry on with the current management OR board when they don't act!

If both parents are working, how would they like driving 15-40 miles at peak traffic times and wait a couple of hours there before driving back three times a week? There may be a few, but its still my contention that IF there was an academy just up the road, that is where they are MORE likely to take them knowing they will get their chance IF they are good enough?

[Timmy58]

What would the actual saving be from downgrading from a Cat 2 to a Cat 3?
I understand that there are differences in terms of what facilities the club has to offer and the amount of coaches the club has to have, but what would the actual cost drop be?
What are the advantages of having a Cat 2 rather than a Cat 3?
From reading the EPPP it seems to suggest that the main advantage is that you compete against better youth teams and that it affects the amount of compensation we're due if a player gets poached. I'd also say that it's a major selling point to young players when choosing where to go.



Can we stop touting round the idea that the academy doesn't pay for itself , it clearly does? Add up player sales for the last 10 years, it comes to over 15 million. That is easily more than the academy has cost us and we're not counting the amount of money it saves us as the young players are on a third of the wages of an established pro.

What the concern is for me is that we have a manager that is destroying the development of our youngsters, since Davis started we've not had one young player establish himself and leave for money. This calls Davis into question not the academy.

Like

[MikeSB]

Like

Like

Of course you like it as any post you like that doesn't rock the boat.

Have YOU had enough now or should we just continue on as we are? Or don't you think that 2 wins in 21 games is relegation form which in this case is NON league. How many times have fans say lets give x number of games and Bowler and other CA directors were at the Mansfield game today and so WTF do they talk about after every single game or is it really which brand of tea and biscuits they have? They may as well! Each time we expect an announcement from the board and yet nothing! Even the very loyal GM is asking why JB isn't coming on and telling fans what the plan is...

Just to add that SD has given academy graduates games. Has it ever occurred to anyone yet, that they may NOT be good enough for even L2 and the board SHOULD know how much each graduate has cost over the last ten or more years and yet unable to make the grade? Has it ever occurred to these non footballers that talent is really BORN and not made yet? And the proof is there for all to see. Kids that do make it would have done so irrespective of any coaching and you know why that is? Because they always did over the last 100 years when there wasn't any. We in fact won the World Cup without even ONE and we have been knocked out in the early rounds with scores and scores of them...I even was around to watch it live in 1966....Wow! What a day that was!

I wonder who taught Bobby Charlton to score goals from 30 yards and yet Dario almost made that a crime and George Best? Duncan Edwards who died in the Munich disaster played for England at age 17...I think even I may have made the grade training 3 times a week and a great gym to stay fit in...

You really don't need coaches and the ones that say so are on a bloody good salary and that won't change will it.

[Timmy58]

Of course you like it as any post you like that doesn't rock the boat.

Have YOU had enough now or should we just continue on as we are? Or don't you think that 2 wins in 21 games is relegation form which in this case is NON league. How many times have fans say lets give x number of games and Bowler and other CA directors were at the Mansfield game today and so WTF do they talk about after every single game or is it really which brand of tea and biscuits they have? They may as well! Each time we expect an announcement from the board and yet nothing! Even the very loyal GM is asking why JB isn't coming on and telling fans what the plan is...

Just to add that SD has given academy graduates games. Has it ever occurred to anyone yet, that they may NOT be good enough for even L2 and the board SHOULD know how much each graduate has cost over the last ten or more years and yet unable to make the grade? Has it ever occurred to these non footballers that talent is really BORN and not made yet? And the proof is there for all to see. Kids that do make it would have done so irrespective of any coaching and you know why that is? Because they always did over the last 100 years when there wasn't any. We in fact won the World Cup without even ONE and we have been knocked out in the early rounds with scores and scores of them...I even was around to watch it live in 1966....Wow! What a day that was!

I wonder who taught Bobby Charlton to score goals from 30 yards and yet Dario almost made that a crime and George Best? Duncan Edwards who died in the Munich disaster played for England at age 17...I think even I may have made the grade training 3 times a week and a great gym to stay fit in...

You really don't need coaches and the ones that say so are on a bloody good salary and that won't change will it.

If you read the post that drew a "Like" from me you will answer your own question. As for your constant carping about coaching being a waste of time, well that is ridiculous in just about every respect. Any player in any sport will benefit from coaching to maximise their natural ability!

[MikeSB]

If you read the post that drew a "Like" from me you will answer your own question. As for your constant carping about coaching being a waste of time, well that is ridiculous in just about every respect. Any player in any sport will benefit from coaching to maximise their natural ability!

There is a huge difference between someone who is 'naturally' talented enough to make the grade or to have excelled at their sport or anything else as it always has been and taking a whole of lot of kids at 5 and 8 and 12 and trying to 'coach' them. If it really did work as people try and make out then ten years coaching by so called experts should be able to produce 4th division players never mind PL ones. The evidence is there IF you care to look. There was no coaching or academies before what 1980? and every player that made the grade did so because their talent shone through at were noticed by scouts in amateur football and then they went for trials and dependent on how good they were decided on the level. Its rather simple really. How many players from PL academies make the first team and why do most have foreign players in there when we have super dupa academies? How well have we done in the last couple of World Cups? Not just that we should be out footballing all these lower league teams that don't have academies never mind Cat2 and so its a wing and prayer that 'some' will come through and the same if they can be sold on for millions..So how of all these other players managed to be better players than ours without that level of coaching that is deemed so important? Of course those making a good living out of them will defend them, they would be stupid not too BUT the whole point that is missing is there are literally hundreds of players out there just waiting for a chance and because we have spent so much on ours we don't want to sign them...None better than ours was the phrase...There are also dozens of unemployed managers who would come here even with the constraints we have..

Anyhow, time will prove one of us wrong and we keep the Cat2 or we downgrade and IF we were unfortunate to get relegated then all of it will go and so will DG and JB and the rest of the Board and Hassall can forget selling his shares as they will be worth nothing and how is that going btw?