OT another terrorist attack.

[KerrAvon]

So those good Christian boys and girls in Britain First and the EDL have also been turned from the path of righteousness by Islam. Forced to shave their heads and adopt the language of hate. Tommy Robinson would have quietly got on with his life, except for the odd brush with the law (for which you act as an apologist).

I guess on your map of extremism all roads lead to Islam.

I think it bonkers to suggest that hostility towards Muslims is a new phenomenon or that there is no hostility towards Sikhs, Hindus or indeed any other minority. Islamic terrorism merely gives what was already there a focus (or excuse).

I note your concession that our foreign policy may have played a part in the rise of terrorism. I suppose that would be a kind of bridleway or dismantled railway leading beyond Islam on your map of extremism.

I don't think it excuses the terrorism, but I think our foreign policy plays a much bigger part in what is happening than you. More like an A Road. That is evidenced by the timing of the rise of Islamic terrorism. There has been a significant number of Muslims in this country since the 60s and so if you are correct that the terrorists are acting upon a Qur'anic imperative, that is when the attacks should have started. Instead, they began to happen after the country took part in the invasion and occupation of Muslim countries.

The passages in the Qur'an that you attach so much weight to are certainly important tools in the hands of the radicalisers, but they are just one factor in the equation.

I know you hate people drawing parallels to Christianity, but I'm going to do it anyway. Christians used passages from the Bible to justify slavery, but I don't think any sensible person would suggest that it wouldn't have happened but for that biblical justification. I think the same applies to the reaction to the West that we are seeing from some Muslims.

[ragingpup]

There has been a significant number of Muslims in this country since the 60s and so if you are correct that the terrorists are acting upon a Qur'anic imperative, that is when the attacks should have started. Instead, they began to happen after the country took part in the invasion and occupation of Muslim countries.

Excellent point.

[Exiletyke]

Ellis, if I focused on everything you said, I'd spend my life either on here or researching a response.

I am slightly in awe at your verbosity. You have a lot of time on your hands.

I wouldn't have focused on post 39, but for your reference to apologists, which is with respect as boring and pointless as tiresome references to racism.

You seem to be able to attribute the actions of the Finsbury attacker solely to 'radicalisation' at the hands of the Manchester and London attackers and by dint of that exclude the possibility that he has been influenced by the constant nonsense spouted about Islam on football sites, in pubs, at workplaces and a whole host of other places in the UK. I think that a bit presumptuous of you.

" Ellis, if I focused on everything you said, I'd spend my life either on here or researching a response."


Now that seems to me to be a pretty accurate description of what your life is about Kerr

[Exiletyke]

Excellent point.

Strength in numbers
The significant numbers have become much more significant have they not?
Perhaps Kerr can give us the statistics

[gm_gm]

Excellent point.

But hardly consistent with IS ideology who have stated they want to destroy our way of life, they have blown up Mosques as well as Churches.

[Exiletyke]

Strength in numbers
The significant numbers have become much more significant have they not?
Perhaps Kerr can give us the statistics

I'll save you the trouble Kerr as I know how busy you are

The significant number you refer to in the 60's was 50,000 {0.1 % of the UK population}
2014 3.5 million {5.5% of UK population}

[KerrAvon]

But hardly consistent with IS ideology who have stated they want to destroy our way of life, they have blown up Mosques as well as Churches.

The first stated aim of IS was the reversal of the effects of the Sykes-Picot agreement, which rather suggests a more significant role for Western actions in the creation of Islamic extremism than some would accept

You are right that other Muslims are bearing the brunt of the violence from IS. I think that gives the game away in showing that it's largely about a desire for power, just like most violence.

[Exiletyke]

The first stated aim of IS was the reversal of the effects of the Sykes-Picot agreement, which rather suggests a more significant role for Western actions in the creation of Islamic extremism than some would accept

You are right that other Muslims are bearing the brunt of the violence from IS. I think that gives the game away in showing that it's largely about a desire for power, just like most violence.

So you're back to calling them IS [Islamic State] then
The clue's in the title

[ragingpup]

I'll save you the trouble Kerr as I know how busy you are

The significant number you refer to in the 60's was 50,000 {0.1 % of the UK population}
2014 3.5 million {5.5% of UK population}

Depends on your source I suppose. According to International Journal of Environmental Science and Development, Vol. 1, No. 2, June 2010 ISSN:2010-0264 you are correct that in the 50s the population was 50% but it also says that at 2010 it was 4% and will remain at that in 2020 as a relative drop in Muslim belief in religion balances the growth in numbers.

Anyhoo - the point was why, if the words of Islam are the biggest significant factor, how come there were no terrorist events in Islamic name up to 2005, when the population had increased to approx 2.5% of the population? Surely the words of the text alone can't explain the sudden activity in this country and worldwide since?

I'm not saying that western policy has been the biggest factor, I don't think anyone is, but it has been a huge motivator to action of the terrorist war lords.

I posed the question to Ellis yesterday; if the words of the text, as waved around by Tommy Robinson are so significant, what do we do about it. Ellis suggested good practical ways of dealing with the overall problems but for someone who has placed such importance on the actual words on the holy text as the prime motivator, including Tom waving it around on live TV - what do people here suggest we DO about it, that is practical and workable. I would certainly say compulsory education of children in this country to include questioning, acceptance and tolerance of different faiths but that is admittedly long term. To those so animated by anti-Islam sentiment, what are you proposing to DO about it?

[Exiletyke]

Depends on your source I suppose. According to International Journal of Environmental Science and Development, Vol. 1, No. 2, June 2010 ISSN:2010-0264 you are correct that in the 50s the population was 50% but it also says that at 2010 it was 4% and will remain at that in 2020 as a relative drop in Muslim belief in religion balances the growth in numbers.

Anyhoo - the point was why, if the words of Islam are the biggest significant factor, how come there were no terrorist events in Islamic name up to 2005, when the population had increased to approx 2.5% of the population? Surely the words of the text alone can't explain the sudden activity in this country and worldwide since?

I'm not saying that western policy has been the biggest factor, I don't think anyone is, but it has been a huge motivator to action of the terrorist war lords.

I posed the question to Ellis yesterday; if the words of the text, as waved around by Tommy Robinson are so significant, what do we do about it. Ellis suggested good practical ways of dealing with the overall problems but for someone who has placed such importance on the actual words on the holy text as the prime motivator, including Tom waving it around on live TV - what do people here suggest we DO about it, that is practical and workable. I would certainly say compulsory education of children in this country to include questioning, acceptance and tolerance of different faiths but that is admittedly long term. To those so animated by anti-Islam sentiment, what are you proposing to DO about it?

How about making sure that when people come to settle in this country that they observe our traditions & practices
Try entering a Mosque in Dubai for instance without covering your head & see how far you get
Not that I'm against that tradition [ritual] so don't go there if you don't like the rules & for Pete's sake don't disobey the alcohol laws
Respect their ways even if you don't like them but that rule should apply here