OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Andy_Faber]

How do you reach that conclusion?
To me nationalism is patriotism taken to an extreme so that people feel their nation is actually 'superior'. I don't feel that. I'm proud of some aspects of my country...the Lions today, our contribution to the music scene, winning the Ashes, the Peak District, our recent Olympic performances, Snowdonia, the NHS...to name but a few. Except in a fairly shallow sporting context though, I don't feel or want/need to feel superior.
Having no time for 'nationalism' is not synonymous with the 'surrender of nationality', whatever that means.
Vive la difference!

I think Nationalism in this context gets mixed up a lot with what I'd call 'anti-(EU)-federalism', the kickback against the drive for a European 'superstate', which in my observation is definitely on some European politicians' 'to do list'. My Greek friend (the one who perversely had a vote in the Scottish Independance referendum) put it this way - 'We Greeks deserve to be in the grip of the EU, we stupidly failed on our obligations to the moneylender, and now she has our ass, but YOU are more stupid that us, because she also has a hand on your tiller and makes you pay for the privilege!' The she, he and just about every Greek I talk to, is Angela Merkel of course. Not saying I agree, and you'll remember I consider myself a Patriot not a nationalist

[Trickytreesreds]

How do you reach that conclusion?
To me nationalism is patriotism taken to an extreme so that people feel their nation is actually 'superior'. I don't feel that. I'm proud of some aspects of my country...the Lions today, our contribution to the music scene, winning the Ashes, the Peak District, our recent Olympic performances, Snowdonia, the NHS...to name but a few. Except in a fairly shallow sporting context though, I don't feel or want/need to feel superior.
Having no time for 'nationalism' is not synonymous with the 'surrender of nationality', whatever that means.
Vive la difference!

I reach it, by your embracing the EU stance. The drive to ever closer Union, with the superstate run by unelected committees.
Your choices to eject or throw out gone.
All under the guise of free trade, as a glue. This whole shambles has been a charade from the start.

I'll quote you again, (seeing as most folks never answer it)
“The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe.”

Michail Gorbochov

[ramAnag]

I reach it, by your embracing the EU stance. The drive to ever closer Union, with the superstate run by unelected committees.
Your choices to eject or throw out gone.
All under the guise of free trade, as a glue. This whole shambles has been a charade from the start.

I'll quote you again, (seeing as most folks never answer it)
“The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe.”

Michail Gorbochov

But that's where you're so wrong Tricky. I don't 'embrace the EU stance' of 'ever close Union'.
I recognise that there are things wrong with the current EU but in my experience if you've joined something and you don't like the way things are done then stand your ground, win hearts and minds and change it.
What Gorbachev said decades ago is irrelevant. You only quote him because you think it supports your stance.
The most important thing for me is that thousands of business leaders today in the U.K. now have serious reservations about Brexit and are totally opposed to any sort of hard Brexit. We haven't been able to move on at all since the referendum result of almost thirteen months ago and even the leader of the Brexit campaign now confesses to having reservations.
Being opposed to Brexit doesn't imply a belief that everything in the EU garden is lovely...it isn't but I'm a whole lot more comfortable with the idea of getting down to a bit of weeding and pruning than feeling alienated and being forever locked away on the outside like some sort of noisy and troublesome neighbour.

[Andy_Faber]

if you've joined something and you don't like the way things are done then stand your ground, win hearts and minds and change it.

I'd agree with you in almost every situation other than the EU, I think their agenda is fixed. I'd considered, and decided, on that issue before I voted remain, my decision was that if chose to remain it could thrive in the EU despite that agenda, and if UK chose to leave, EU would become vindictive in its approach and 'punish' UK. The jury's out on that but things like Michel Barnier insisting that all Brexit negotiations should be conducted in French don't bode well for a mature discussion.

[ramAnag]

I'd agree with you in almost every situation other than the EU, I think their agenda is fixed. I'd considered, and decided, on that issue before I voted remain, my decision was that if chose to remain it could thrive in the EU despite that agenda, and if UK chose to leave, EU would become vindictive in its approach and 'punish' UK. The jury's out on that but things like Michel Barnier insisting that all Brexit negotiations should be conducted in French don't bode well for a mature discussion.

Take your point Andy and Barnier's French language declaration did seem unhelpful and probably ultimately counterproductive as English (or American perhaps) is more widely spoken in many European countries than French.
On the other hand, if we are so important to Europe and as influential in the World as we would like to think, then surely we would have been seeking to bring about change from a position of strength.
Unfortunately the post referendum perspective of us is that of a totally divided nation governed by a weak, unpopular Government totally dependent on a small divisive NI party...you're the negotiator but I'd suggest we're certainly no longer negotiating from a position of strength.

[Andy_Faber]

Take your point Andy and Barnier's French language declaration did seem unhelpful and probably ultimately counterproductive as English (or American perhaps) is more widely spoken in many European countries than French.
On the other hand, if we are so important to Europe and as influential in the World as we would like to think, then surely we would have been seeking to bring about change from a position of strength.
Unfortunately the post referendum perspective of us is that of a totally divided nation governed by a weak, unpopular Government totally dependent on a small divisive NI party...you're the negotiator but I'd suggest we're certainly no longer negotiating from a position of strength.

I would go further and say Barnier was being petulant but I'll go with 'unhelpful' (you should be a diplomat!)

Problem with the 'position of strength' thing is Cameron tried that and came back with a bag of crap, sorry but the EU aren't up for straying from their agenda. Great if you like the agenda

Yes you are right the nation is divided, and as stated before, it is likely that the demographic most impacted by any reduction in national circumstances will mainly those who voted leave. Sounds like comrade Swale is riding high on the hog though, possibly from happenstance and possibly astute actions on his part, I actually feel the same, but many many folk are less able to do such maneouvering and could be collateral damage if the negotiations go awry

[ramAnag]

I would go further and say Barnier was being petulant but I'll go with 'unhelpful' (you should be a diplomat!)

Problem with the 'position of strength' thing is Cameron tried that and came back with a bag of crap, sorry but the EU aren't up for straying from their agenda. Great if you like the agenda

Yes you are right the nation is divided, and as stated before, it is likely that the demographic most impacted by any reduction in national circumstances will mainly those who voted leave. Sounds like comrade Swale is riding high on the hog though, possibly from happenstance and possibly astute actions on his part, I actually feel the same, but many many folk are less able to do such maneouvering and could be collateral damage if the negotiations go awry

As has come to light since - for those who didn't acknowledge it initially - Cameron is a fool and possibly the worst PM in living memory.
Judging an outcome via his negotiating skills is therefore worthless.
What puzzles me is that, given your recognition of what the impact of Brexit is likely to be - a judgement which oddly puts you entirely in agreement with Swale - why do you insist on defending it?

[roger_ramjet]

things like Michel Barnier insisting that all Brexit negotiations should be conducted in French don't bode well for a mature discussion.

Doesn't this exactly exemplify why so many people voted to leave the ****box that is the EU. there are 24 official languages of the EU and three languages used for internal business by the Commission - English French and German. Barnier is French, our negotiators arent.... compromise: NO chance. Let petty mindedness rule. Lets try to points score. pathetic. If i was on the fence before, this alone would be one to tip me one way. English is both an official EU language and an official business language - except for when the frog eating **** decides to take cheap shots.

I believe post Brexit we should refuse to allow the EU to use English!!

[ramAnag]

Doesn't this exactly exemplify why so many people voted to leave the ****box that is the EU. there are 24 official languages of the EU and three languages used for internal business by the Commission - English French and German. Barnier is French, our negotiators arent.... compromise: NO chance. Let petty mindedness rule. Lets try to points score. pathetic. If i was on the fence before, this alone would be one to tip me one way. English is both an official EU language and an official business language - except for when the frog eating **** decides to take cheap shots.

I believe post Brexit we should refuse to allow the EU to use English!!

Entente Cordiale not part of your agenda then Rog?

[roger_ramjet]

do as you will be done by