O/T Sarah Champion

[ragingpup]

ragingpup thank you for the stats, but they only back up my post.

A couple of points:

1. 50% of grooming gangs were ALL asian. Thats something to be proud of.

2. A caveat on the stats given was that " children from minority ethnic backgrounds might be less likely to report abuse " so the TRUE figure could be much much larger.

Who's going to try spinning this one, you or brass ?

Not really interested in spinning the facts that we do have, Slim. More interested in trying to find actual facts and trying to question people peddling non facts.

1. Being 'proud' of 'only' or as many as 50% doesn't come into it. As I said, Asian people are over represented in that figure. But clearly, some people think that the % is actually higher, and seem to be putting over that its exclusively an Asian/Muslim activity. This clearly, from independent studies of the crime stats isn't the case. But it's still indicating a significant problem within that community that needs honest discussion, which Champion tried (hamfistedly) to initiate. Did you also note that both independent studies placed the gang grooming issue within the context of rape as a whole. Fullfact went onto to note the other form (type 1 was it) which consisted of groups preying on children securely but with long standing ***ual interests in children (as opposed to the type 2 discussed above). They found that in this type of organised abuse, the criminals were 100% white male. It's not a case of being 'proud', or 'ashamed' of these facts, they are the closest we have to facts on the issue.

2) I think the point of children from ethnic backgrounds being less likely to report abuse was more aimed at questioning that groups of ethnic males were targeting white only girls,not suggesting (as you say) that it could mean more Asian rapists. Sorry but your interpretation here sounds more like spin than anything I could attempt! I'm fact, Sarah Wilson, who has more right to be bitter about these criminals has stressed that it is not an 'Asian only' issue.

I stress persistently that I agree that is an issue that needs action, but action from a factual basis and free from generalising or scape goating.

[Slimchance]

Not really interested in spinning the facts that we do have, Slim. More interested in trying to find actual facts and trying to question people peddling non facts.

1. Being 'proud' of 'only' or as many as 50% doesn't come into it. As I said, Asian people are over represented in that figure. But clearly, some people think that the % is actually higher, and seem to be putting over that its exclusively an Asian/Muslim activity. This clearly, from independent studies of the crime stats isn't the case. But it's still indicating a significant problem within that community that needs honest discussion, which Champion tried (hamfistedly) to initiate. Did you also note that both independent studies placed the gang grooming issue within the context of rape as a whole. Fullfact went onto to note the other form (type 1 was it) which consisted of groups preying on children securely but with long standing ***ual interests in children (as opposed to the type 2 discussed above). They found that in this type of organised abuse, the criminals were 100% white male. It's not a case of being 'proud', or 'ashamed' of these facts, they are the closest we have to facts on the issue.

2) I think the point of children from ethnic backgrounds being less likely to report abuse was more aimed at questioning that groups of ethnic males were targeting white only girls,not suggesting (as you say) that it could mean more Asian rapists. Sorry but your interpretation here sounds more like spin than anything I could attempt! I'm fact, Sarah Wilson, who has more right to be bitter about these criminals has stressed that it is not an 'Asian only' issue.

I stress persistently that I agree that is an issue that needs action, but action from a factual basis and free from generalising or scape goating.

Try contacting Mr Trump he requires a good PR person

[ragingpup]

Try contacting Mr Trump he requires a good PR person

Low blow! Ow!

[monty_rhodes]

Ragingpup, you seem a decent bloke but the vision you peddle of your "moderate Muslim" pals "moving forward" with us - presumably to some undefined multicultural Utopia - is a good laugh. You clearly haven't visited any northern towns lately or, if you have, you have failed to notice that segregation is increasing and Muslim communities that 20 years ago seemed to be integrating are now treading a noticably Islamic path.
I also love your idea that we who disagree with your vision are somehow backwoodsmen. If defending the virtues of the Enlightenment, if supporting the emancipation of women and gays, if upholding the idea of democracy and free speech, if preferring science to a superstition spawned in the deserts of the Middle East, if being able to laugh at cartoons rather than behead the cartoonist, then I'm proud to be a backwoodman and you and the other Islamophiles are massively wrong and one day will be confronted with the consequences of your folly.

[great_fire]

Ragingpup, you seem a decent bloke but the vision you peddle of your "moderate Muslim" pals "moving forward" with us - presumably to some undefined multicultural Utopia - is a good laugh.

And entirely fictional.

[ragingpup]

Ragingpup, you seem a decent bloke but the vision you peddle of your "moderate Muslim" pals "moving forward" with us - presumably to some undefined multicultural Utopia - is a good laugh. You clearly haven't visited any northern towns lately or, if you have, you have failed to notice that segregation is increasing and Muslim communities that 20 years ago seemed to be integrating are now treading a noticably Islamic path.
I also love your idea that we who disagree with your vision are somehow backwoodsmen. If defending the virtues of the Enlightenment, if supporting the emancipation of women and gays, if upholding the idea of democracy and free speech, if preferring science to a superstition spawned in the deserts of the Middle East, if being able to laugh at cartoons rather than behead the cartoonist, then I'm proud to be a backwoodman and you and the other Islamophiles are massively wrong and one day will be confronted with the consequences of your folly.

Firstly let me defend myself against the sense of superiority you seem to have gotten from my post. I asked, complete with question mark, if the differences we perceive in talking to moderate Muslims might be to do with the areas we are from? I wasn't asserting that to be the case, sorry if it came over that way. I even cast doubt on my own proposition by saying that we also have some more entrenched communities here, but not just Muslim. But I can only speak of my own area in Wanstead, Leyton, Leytonstone where there is none of your puerile, sarcastic utopia, but people mix very well and the schools are a complete cultural hotchpotch but have great success rates. That's all. That's my experience, Can I express mine as you've expressed yours? I'm happy to hear others experiences that are different but then I might question them, but I don't think I belittle them?

I come from Rotherham, lived there for 25 years, many of these were lived in central Rotherham, I lived also in the 'Asian' area of Wakefield and my family all still live in Rotherham. My brother and sister in law both work in the community services in Rotherham so I'm not as ignorant of "oop North" as you might think. They see things very differently to you, and are more concerned with the rise of Islamophobia in the town. By contrast, my old best mate has bought fully into the Islamophobia and would be in agreement with the far right folks on here. Who's right? Just exploring.

Also if I may say so, it's a tad rich to be belittling my fanciful utopian words whilst speaking of "defending the virtues of enlightenment" etc! Fine words indeed, but let me also point out that I've also read everything by Hitchens, Dawkins and our lovable cut price comic version Fry; proper thrusting and quite brilliant academics and proponents of rationality, logic and objectivity. But not one of them would reduce themselves to your unresearched, lazy and unjustified assertion that "segregation is increasing and Muslim communities that 20 years ago seemed to be integrating are now treading a noticably Islamic path". If you're going to promote a scientific approach to life (and I'd applaud anyone doing so), then try applying that to your statements on here lad!

So touche bruv! Peace! Let's say you're right and the Muslim community are becoming more entrenched in towns like Rotherham, and let's also say that the majority are as you feel they are, archaic values that clash with our own and unwilling to adapt despite the positive and friendly and welcoming best efforts of the local white community, what do you think we should do about it? You raise genuine concerns that do despite my flurry above, deserve consideration. I've offered ideas on abolishment of any religious schools, organised compulsory mixed culture schools so parents from Muslim, white and other communities are forced to send their children to school together where they are taught acceptance and tolerance so that they can do that better than us. What ideas do you have to move towards solving the problems you raise?

[ragingpup]

And entirely fictional.

You could, just as a suggestion here, try and produce at least one cohesive (or even otherwise, I'll accept non cohesive if you at least try) response to one of the many challenges I've made on your opinions! You seem to take great pride in throwing out all kinds of prejudiced bigoted life observations but when asked to back em up, simply clsm up! Poor show!

[Slimchance]

Firstly let me defend myself against the sense of superiority you seem to have gotten from my post. I asked, complete with question mark, if the differences we perceive in talking to moderate Muslims might be to do with the areas we are from? I wasn't asserting that to be the case, sorry if it came over that way. I even cast doubt on my own proposition by saying that we also have some more entrenched communities here, but not just Muslim. But I can only speak of my own area in Wanstead, Leyton, Leytonstone where there is none of your puerile, sarcastic utopia, but people mix very well and the schools are a complete cultural hotchpotch but have great success rates. That's all. That's my experience, Can I express mine as you've expressed yours? I'm happy to hear others experiences that are different but then I might question them, but I don't think I belittle them?

I come from Rotherham, lived there for 25 years, many of these were lived in central Rotherham, I lived also in the 'Asian' area of Wakefield and my family all still live in Rotherham. My brother and sister in law both work in the community services in Rotherham so I'm not as ignorant of "oop North" as you might think. They see things very differently to you, and are more concerned with the rise of Islamophobia in the town. By contrast, my old best mate has bought fully into the Islamophobia and would be in agreement with the far right folks on here. Who's right? Just exploring.

Also if I may say so, it's a tad rich to be belittling my fanciful utopian words whilst speaking of "defending the virtues of enlightenment" etc! Fine words indeed, but let me also point out that I've also read everything by Hitchens, Dawkins and our lovable cut price comic version Fry; proper thrusting and quite brilliant academics and proponents of rationality, logic and objectivity. But not one of them would reduce themselves to your unresearched, lazy and unjustified assertion that "segregation is increasing and Muslim communities that 20 years ago seemed to be integrating are now treading a noticably Islamic path". If you're going to promote a scientific approach to life (and I'd applaud anyone doing so), then try applying that to your statements on here lad!

So touche bruv! Peace! Let's say you're right and the Muslim community are becoming more entrenched in towns like Rotherham, and let's also say that the majority are as you feel they are, archaic values that clash with our own and unwilling to adapt despite the positive and friendly and welcoming best efforts of the local white community, what do you think we should do about it? You raise genuine concerns that do despite my flurry above, deserve consideration. I've offered ideas on abolishment of any religious schools, organised compulsory mixed culture schools so parents from Muslim, white and other communities are forced to send their children to school together where they are taught acceptance and tolerance so that they can do that better than us. What ideas do you have to move towards solving the problems you raise?

If the politicians and you don't accept there is a problem then nothing will change.

[ragingpup]

If the politicians and you don't accept there is a problem then nothing will change.

I've said repeatedly that I agree there is a problem and that Chapion was absolutely right to speak out about it. Not sure how many times I have to say it? To try and 1) put a problem in context and 2) stop people using the problem as an excuse to vent their obvious bigotry is NOT to deny the problem, or to stop us doing something about it.

I've even offered some general ideas on how we could go about improving the issue, fazing faith schools, forced school integration, education outreach led by Muslim leaders. Might these work? Are they on the right lines? What other realistic and workable solutions do you have? Or anyone else interested in this issue? All I seem to read are people harping on about their perception of the problem.

[gm_gm]

I think that many in media accept it (The times ran a good article), professor Jay and her predecessor spoke about it being a cultural problem, the police chief in Newcastle said it was a problem in Pakistani culture and that the police would take part in a debate if asked.

Majid Nawaaz on LBC has commented on it....theres still over 70 *****s at large in Rotherham (according to the reports that over 100 people involved) and 35 police offers are under investigation still! The councillors seemed to have escaped justice