OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

so you're classing ME as one of those?

No I’m not...you voted Remain and then tried to be positive about the outcome, but the last I heard you were giving serious consideration to voting LibDem - the only major party wholly opposed to Brexit.
Unless you’ve changed your mind - again - you are a clear example of someone who has ‘seen the light’, or at least recognised that all is not as it seemed, as far as I can tell.

[mistaram]

No I’m not...you voted Remain and then tried to be positive about the outcome, but the last I heard you were giving serious consideration to voting LibDem - the only major party wholly opposed to Brexit.
Unless you’ve changed your mind - again - you are a clear example of someone who has ‘seen the light’, or at least recognised that all is not as it seemed, as far as I can tell.

RA There will not be a Lib Dem party if Cable gets his so called centralist party

[Andy_Faber]

No I’m not...you voted Remain and then tried to be positive about the outcome, but the last I heard you were giving serious consideration to voting LibDem - the only major party wholly opposed to Brexit.
Unless you’ve changed your mind - again - you are a clear example of someone who has ‘seen the light’, or at least recognised that all is not as it seemed, as far as I can tell.

I think I remarked that there's more to politics than Brexit. You and I aren't far apart on this, you seem to want a centrist party to be dominant, I want one to be powerful enough to reign in the excesses of the largest party. I saw the light June 24th 2016 and haven't wavered, I am disappointed that the government have made such a ballsup of things though.

[MadAmster]

It took the Tories 9 months to activate clause 50 following the referendum. A further 15 moths down the line they still aren't sure what sort of deal they want, if they actually want one at all. Politicians have cocked up big time. They are supposed to lead and to carry out the will of the people (forget the arguments for a second and pretend that leave won). They have done bugger all. They have, yet again let the people down. They are denuding the Scottish Parliament of power. They are riding roughshod over the Scottish people. The problem is that there is a clause in the Union agreememt from about 300 years ago that means that what they are currently doing in overriding Holyrood is actually illegal.

They are ensuring Scottish independence and a huge deficit in UK trade when they no longer have their hands on oil revenue. Wastemonster has ****** up BIG time.

That is Mayhem's legacy. She has ****** the UK.

[ramAnag]

I think I remarked that there's more to politics than Brexit. You and I aren't far apart on this, you seem to want a centrist party to be dominant, I want one to be powerful enough to reign in the excesses of the largest party. I saw the light June 24th 2016 and haven't wavered, I am disappointed that the government have made such a ballsup of things though.

Always coherent and reasonable Andy, but it’s just not true to say you ‘haven’t wavered’.
You’ve gone, apparently, from voting ‘Remain’ to ‘seeing the light’ a day later and becoming a supporter of Brexit in its less extreme form since then...until recently when you have spoken in favour of voting for the only one of the three major Parties to be united in their total opposition to Brexit.
You can dress it up anyway you like and hide behind the notion of there being ‘more to politics than Brexit’. That is indeed true, but just about everything in British/European politics at present comes down to the future of the EU and our relationship with it. To consider and even advocate voting for Vince Cable and the LibDems in such circumstances clearly represent the thoughts of a ‘waverer’...and very pleased I am to see it.

[Manofpride]

Always coherent and reasonable Andy, but it’s just not true to say you ‘haven’t wavered’.
You’ve gone, apparently, from voting ‘Remain’ to ‘seeing the light’ a day later and becoming a supporter of Brexit in its less extreme form since then...until recently when you have spoken in favour of voting for the only one of the three major Parties to be united in their total opposition to Brexit.
You can dress it up anyway you like and hide behind the notion of there being ‘more to politics than Brexit’. That is indeed true, but just about everything in British/European politics at present comes down to the future of the EU and our relationship with it. To consider and even advocate voting for Vince Cable and the LibDems in such circumstances clearly represent the thoughts of a ‘waverer’...and very pleased I am to see it.

One is allowed to change one's mind after seeing the light. After all remainers are hanging on to the hope that there will be another vote and that Brexiteers will change their mind. It ain't going to happen though!

[Geoff Parkstone]

It may not happen that hard core brexiteers will change their vote, but actually all it needs to swing is for some of the previously apathetic youth remainers to get out of bed and vote - now that they realise that their cosy lifestyle may be disrupted.

Then this whole colossal farce will end and we will be wiping egg off our face for years, have wasted billions on planning in both the public and private sector, and become the whipping boy of Europe as they will see we cannot even work out how to quit.

Give up Brexit now and we will have 50 years of persecution and be ridden roughshod over by EU. The bureaucrats will simply tell us to do it and we'll have to, our threat of leaving having been blown.

Grim days ahead if our bluff is called and we stay, for sure.

[ramAnag]

One is allowed to change one's mind after seeing the light. After all remainers are hanging on to the hope that there will be another vote and that Brexiteers will change their mind. It ain't going to happen though!

Absolutely MoP...’one is allowed to change one’s mind after seeing the light’...and after vocalising his support for Vince Cable and the Lib Dems it would seem that this is what Andy has done.
Intelligent people change their minds to adapt to changing circumstances...I would suggest that this is what many are currently doing as the extent to which they were misled by the Brexit campaign continues to emerge.

Parky, you always did have a reputation of being a little bit of a staff room curmudgeon, but what is it with you and young people?
It’s their future that’s being threatened and the comforts that you and I could - and maybe have - taken advantage of and taken for granted that is now in jeopardy.
‘50 years of persecution’ if we rethink Brexit...utter tripe! Why?

[Geoff Parkstone]

Statistics suggest that the younger generation were (a) mainly remainers and (b) the biggest apathetic group of all as regards voting. I add (a) and (b) and consider that if they got off their idle arses and voted, then we wouldn't be on you pathway to hell. In other words in a second referendum remain would win regardless of turning any brexiteer voters.

My second conjecture is simple. If that happens and we in fact remain, we as a nation will have lost all credibility within the EU. We will probably lose all the concessions that Thatcher obtained re funding, anything Cameron might have got would go. The annual cost of remaining would escalate, but, more disturbingly, since we will have demonstrated a total inability to back ourselves, the remaining members would just take the piss when we come back with tail between legs saying "we didn't mean it Sir".

The future would then proceed with all concessions gone and noone taking us seriously. Our opt out rights on a lot of the crap they try to shovel on us would be eroded and gradually the Borg would assimilate us as pure Eurocitizens. it is one of the comforts of impending death that someone of my age faces that I probably won't be assimilated.

[ramAnag]

Statistics suggest that the younger generation were (a) mainly remainers and (b) the biggest apathetic group of all as regards voting. I add (a) and (b) and consider that if they got off their idle arses and voted, then we wouldn't be on you pathway to hell. In other words in a second referendum remain would win regardless of turning any brexiteer voters.

My second conjecture is simple. If that happens and we in fact remain, we as a nation will have lost all credibility within the EU. We will probably lose all the concessions that Thatcher obtained re funding, anything Cameron might have got would go. The annual cost of remaining would escalate, but, more disturbingly, since we will have demonstrated a total inability to back ourselves, the remaining members would just take the piss when we come back with tail between legs saying "we didn't mean it Sir".

The future would then proceed with all concessions gone and noone taking us seriously. Our opt out rights on a lot of the crap they try to shovel on us would be eroded and gradually the Borg would assimilate us as pure Eurocitizens. it is one of the comforts of impending death that someone of my age faces that I probably won't be assimilated.

So make all referendums as compulsory as possible. That is what is done in other countries...even with elections in some.
If you really want to discover the ‘will of the people’ that is what has to happen and to win there must be a majority of more than 50% of the electorate...what is wrong with that?

Just can’t see the other bit Geoff. Do the EU want us to leave? Absolutely not. In fact possibly the only good thing about the referendum is that, having come this close to upsetting the proverbial apple cart, we could conceivably be in a stronger bargaining position.
The EU wants to include the UK. Many, not just Brexiteers, want change. The UK referendum has stimulated questioning about the nature of the EU within other countries...Netherlands, Germany, France and Italy for starters.
I don’t personally like the form that many of those questioners take however I do recognise the need for change, and isn’t it just possible that by ‘returning’, despite both sides having to eat some ‘humble pie’, we could just be in a position to both pick up the continued benefits and lead change within the EU rather than be destructively isolated from it?