o/t Does anyone seriously believe Corbyn is an anti-semite?

[WanChaiMiller]

Israel is a racist Apartheid regime? Good grief. And you wonder why Labour has got into such a mess over antisemitism when its supporters are willing to express such nonsensical views.

Israel is a secular parliamentary democracy with a free press and judiciary that has delivered the best living standards in the Middle East for its citizens, Jewish or otherwise. To compare it with an apartheid regime is plain silly.

It is (an Apartheid regime) and has been from the day it was created. A bit if history always helps in understanding how we got to the current situation.

The country was created by forcibly evicting the original Palastinian inhabitants rendering them stateless and homeless, moving them to a completely different region and replacing their old home territory with Jews. Too right Palestinians are a bit p*ssed off.

The architects of Israel, Imperial Britain and the USA, in the period around the middle of the last century, as the Empire was breaking up, had the notion that humanity would be best served by living in separate communities. They drew lines in the sand to create separate states and separated different races/cultures to its own territory; that we would all move forward living in total harmony.

The reality is completely different. They created fault lines and conflicts across regions that have endured to this day (as we found in Israel, South Africa, Iran/Iraq, USA, Ireland and India/Pak).

Israel is a classic one culture state. The definition of Apartheid from google dictionary: 'a policy or system of segregation or discrimination on grounds of race.' Cant see how it is anything else.

[ragingpup]

I work with evidence. So, as Lloyd Grossaman would say in his mid-Atlantic accent, let’s look at the evidence on Corbyn and anti-Semitism.

Of course it isn’t antisemitic to criticise some of the actions of the Israeli government, but what Corbyn does goes a little bit beyond that doesn’t it? Referring to Hamas – an organisation committed to the destruction of the state of Israel and who regularly launch rockets into residential areas – as ‘friends’ and inviting them to Parliament goes a bit beyond criticising the settling of the West Bank. What does Corbyn think should happen to the 8 million people - many of the Jews, but by no means all - who live in Israel, if his friends were to get their way?

Attending a wreath laying for Black September terrorists who attacked Israeli athletes in Munich goes a bit beyond criticising the de-facto blockade of the Gaza strip even if he was ‘present but not participating’, as the final excuse for that one goes.

Care has to be taken with drawing conclusions from Corbyn’s association with terror organisations who primarily target Israel, however, as he has also, of course, associated with Republican terrorists in Ireland who, as far as we know, have no beef with Jews, but prefer to shoot and blow up Protestants, people who paint Union Jacks on the sides of their houses and the British state.

Where it starts to get interesting is Corbyn’s defence of the anti-Semitic mural that hit the news earlier this year. That mural is antisemitic upon the shortest of inspections and has nothing at all to do with Israel or the Palestinians. I recall that we went through several different versions of the Corbyn excuse for that (as he and his advisors realised that the earlier versions wouldn’t hold water), but the final version was one that he didn’t look properly before commenting i.e. his brain was present, but not participating. That excuse admits of two explanations – he is lying and either didn’t care or agreed with the antisemitic nature of the mural or that he is very stupid. If any Corbyn supporter can think of a third explanation, I’d love to hear it as neither of my options are one that would make me want him as Prime Minister.

Branding UK Zionists as lacking a sense of irony despite having lived in the country for a long time is more interesting still, not least because the comment demonstrates that he sees those people as ‘separate’ from the UK population. To illustrate that point, consider what would happen if IBS had started a thread in which such a sweeping and negative generalisation was made about UK Muslims by another poster. It is beyond doubt that certain other posters would be all over it- going ‘waaah’ to the mods - complaining about right wing views on the site.

With the evidence above, I think it impossible to say with certainty that Corbyn is an antisemite, but I think it impossible to completely clear him of the charge too.

I agree that the antisemitism issue has been used a stick to beat Corbyn over the head with, but it was Corbyn who carefully polished the stick before handing it to his critics.

The real issue with Corbyn is summed up in this opinion piece from the Independent, which sets out the way he has become morally compromised by his rather blinkered and, frankly, naïve approach to the world. It’s a good read:


https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a7875451.html

I think that the idea that Corbyn polished the stick used to beat him with has some truth (although not a pretty image!) Historically he has argued and stood on the side of the people that he considers to be oppressed and this includes people who were at odds with the UK state such as Irish Republicans. It brings some questions to mind in relation to the British v Irish and Israel v Palestine conflicts:

1. Have the British/Israeli governments historically carried out policies that are contrary to the interests to large numbers of people native to those lands?

2. Did/do the British/Israeli governments carry out their own historical atrocities against the native peoples in order to maintain these policies?

3. Did/do the native people have a just argument against these policies/actions that stand up to attempted objective scrutiny?

4. Do some of these native people have the right to carry out counter terrorist activities against innocent civilians to further their opposition to there perceived oppression?

5. Does arguing the cause of the native peoples by default mean that you are in approval of the terrorist activity in 4?

Hopefully no one will say Yes to 4!

But obviously Corbyn has historically sided with the Irish/Palestinian people and as such is tarred with their terrorist wings, especially when the historical atrocities of their 'opposing' governments are filtered out by the press, as are the fact that peaceful resolutions were reached in the UK that still evade us in Israel/Palestine. Maybe the opposing factions there could learn from how peace was achieved in Ireland? And in South Africa when that former actual terrorist went on to lead his country and won the Nobel Peace Prize. Aren't your comments on Corbyn's history here a little un-nuanced and lacking overall perspective?

For me, I am disappointed that Corbyn became so 'political' when under pressure on the 'wreath' - I would much rather he stay vocal and proud in his support for Palestine against (as Wanchai points out briefly above) an Israeli state that not only took a huge slice of former Palestinian territory in 1948 but has since gone on into Internationally recognised unacceptable occupation of lands allocated to Palestine in the carve up rather than backtracking and playing politics. It doesn't suit him.

Finally, I'm disappointed that you've taken the standard line on 'Irony-gate' as a "sweeping and negative generalisation". Please watch the video of the speech here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45301548

Please talk me through your reasoning as to how Corbyn's referral to the "Zionists who were in the audience..." (referring to a small group of pro-Zionists who were present at a speech by a pro-Palestian representative) lacking historical awareness and didn't understand English irony = a sweeping, negative generalisation, cos I just don't get it. He was referring to a small number of pro Zionist people in a room when a speech was being made, and subsequently protested. So who is the generalisation about? How does this relate to other Jews, Zionists or otherwise??

[frogmiller]

Unless Corbyn talks with the leaders of any faction it wouldn't get the air time he thinks/thought is needed to open up dialog.

it's a good post Ragingpup. Corbyn is between a rock and a hard place in the way you've set out your views. I don't think that he could ever sde with the Palestinians if he wants to be the Prime Minister.

[the_idiotb_stardson]

Just as an aside. This is a cracking thread and I have learnt so much. Kerr's post has really challenged my views.

Some great replies to Kerr as well.

A big hand for frog who has moderated the thread and other threads very well indeed.

This learning curve would not have happened if the debate had been closed down.

[nakedtruth]

Just as an aside. This is a cracking thread and I have learnt so much. Kerr's post has really challenged my views.

Some great replies to Kerr as well.

A big hand for frog who has moderated the thread and other threads very well indeed.

This learning curve would not have happened if the debate had been closed down.

I wonder which football club Corbyn supports?

[ragingpup]

Just as an aside. This is a cracking thread and I have learnt so much. Kerr's post has really challenged my views.

Some great replies to Kerr as well.

A big hand for frog who has moderated the thread and other threads very well indeed.

This learning curve would not have happened if the debate had been closed down.

How very sincere!

[rolymiller]

Yes so sincere. I love the "Kerr has challenged my views". I could have predicted you would have the same right wing views as Kerr before either of you posted on this topic. Load of bollax. And intelligent folk on here are not conned.

[rolymiller]

...its also a cracking thread? B it arrogant to say that seeing as though you started it. I can't get me feckin breath.

[rolymiller]

Whoa I've just spotted summ at else. You say Kerr has challenged your views you ain't even put your view on as per usual just got the righties to do it for you.

[great_fire]

I wonder which football club Corbyn supports?

Arsenal.

Just like Osama Bin laden.