Tony Blair in running for fa

[KerrAvon]

@ animal,

I think you ask the wrong questions, which is why you get to the wrong answers. For example, there is plenty wrong with the railways today (inevitably given Grayling's involvement), so the right question is ‘how can they be improved?’ From my experience with British Rail in the past and the services I use now, I conclude that the right answer is not nationalisation. There was no ‘probably’ in whether BR didn’t perform well. And if you think Europe shows the way, try travelling on SNCF in France; I’ve used it three times in the last two years and have had my journey disrupted by strike action on two of them. Macron is currently fighting to bring it into the 20th Century. I imagine that he will then take a breather before pushing on to the 21st

You miss the point when you talk about your views of the economy. I could probably make a longer list of issues with it than you and I am constantly disappointed by governments of every hue (that’s what you can do if you don’t belong to any particular political tribe), but the right question is ‘who could do it better?’ I look at McDonnell with his ‘wanting to overthrow capitalism and for the UK to become a socialist society’ and have no doubt that it isn’t him.

Another right question you could ask would be ‘who could deliver an improved system of industrial relations in this country?’ I look at McCluskey bankrolling Labour and whipping in its supporters and immediately conclude, not the current version of Labour.

Finally, I think you fall into the trap of assuming that your views of what Labour should be about actually count for something. I have no doubt that the average Labour member doesn't want to do a Venezuela or ‘overthrow capitalism' as per McDonnell, but it isn’t going to be the average Labour Party member who is running the country if a Labour government was returned. It’s going to be Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, McCluskey, Serwotka et al.

P.s. I note you comment about Trump and Brexit, which you attribute, as I understand it, to neo-liberalism. You voted for Brexit - what are you saying, that you abandoned reason and simply did do out of protest?

[ragingpup]

I’m an admirer of aspects of the Nordic model, but am not certain that it could be easily translated to the UK, which has a very different history and economy to those countries. I’m a massive fan of a more collaborative approach within an economy, but could that be achieved with people like Serwotka and McCluskey at the helm in British Trade Unions? I suspect that they may not identify with your interpretation of what most Labour supporters would more look towards when identifying as Socialists.

If you want to go Nordic, you should join the Lib Dems. That is the UK party that comes closest to offering it.

Interesting beginnings of thoughts leading to:

1. What do you mean by "a more collaborative approach within an economy"? What would this involve? What would be the benefits for your average working bod, both in terms of job security, wages and public services? How would it work in practice? Ant examples of country's that use a more collaborative approach so I can get more idea of what you mean?

2. How is the last Lib Dem manifesto more 'Nordic' than the last Labour one? What do you mean? Norway opted out of the EU, the Lib Dems are all about getting back in?

3. How is the Norwegian economy so different to our own that it is preventative of us following their model moving forward?

These aren't challenges, just intrigued to know more of what you'd actually like to see going forward.

[monty_rhodes]

Correct John. I am not talking about the Stalinist version of Socialism as Kerr seems to think. Certainly some Marxist principles should be employed and anti capitalist (which is the root/ route of all evil as far as I'm concerned) but democratic socialism in terms of giving ordinary folks a powerful voice in how society is conducted.The most important thing to me is the level playing field where EVERYBODY has an equal chance not just a privileged few who are born into privilege. This for me has got to be a global system as well. The wealthy might have to go without a few yachts, flash cars, holidays, bling etc. but tough luck. I'm not asking them to starve to death or be homeless like many do/ are under capitalism.

This seems odd, or slightly odd. It would interest me to know which aspects of the Stalinist system roly would ditch. And which "Marxist principles" are we to incorporate in roly's economic model. Capitalism in all its forms as the root of all evil is a bit hackneyed and hyperbolic. If we give "ordinary folks" a "powerful voice" might they not vote for socially regressive policies, the death penalty, nationalism, an end to immigration, an end to overseas aid, or whatever. The point here is that roly's socialist brotherhood will need a means of ensuring that "the masses" are on message for the Socialist Utopia. historically this has usually (always?) lead to repression, a police state and the gulags.
I am also interested in roly's mechanisms for ensuring "EVERYBODY" has an equal chance. But humans are not equal and some are bestowed with abilities and talents that others are not. Presumably he means we all start off with the same amount of money and identical education? But that won't achieve his aim. In fact I suspect what roly and the gang are really about is a hatred of the wealthy and an unwillingness to accept that wealth is many cases is not based on privilege but on talent, hard work and luck. And as Jesus said above: "Talent, hardwork and luck are always with you..."

[Exiletyke]

Blair got out while the going was good.

Then let Gordon Brown carry the can for all the sh*t he left.

A bit like Cameron did with Theresa Maybe

[gm_gm]

I think most Labour supporters would more look look towards the democratic socialism of the Nordic model when identifying as socialists, which I don't think can be said to be delivering misery to the masses. Little bit of a cheap straw man to imply they're all communists or aspire to the likes of Venezuela.

And Blair is hated amongst Labour supporters because of Iraq. That's a simple one.

Lol..democratic socialism, so you finally agree there isn’t anything democratic about our Labour Party...one man ten thousand votes

[animallittle3]

@ animal,

I think you ask the wrong questions, which is why you get to the wrong answers. For example, there is plenty wrong with the railways today (inevitably given Grayling's involvement), so the right question is ‘how can they be improved?’ From my experience with British Rail in the past and the services I use now, I conclude that the right answer is not nationalisation. There was no ‘probably’ in whether BR didn’t perform well. And if you think Europe shows the way, try travelling on SNCF in France; I’ve used it three times in the last two years and have had my journey disrupted by strike action on two of them. Macron is currently fighting to bring it into the 20th Century. I imagine that he will then take a breather before pushing on to the 21st

You miss the point when you talk about your views of the economy. I could probably make a longer list of issues with it than you and I am constantly disappointed by governments of every hue (that’s what you can do if you don’t belong to any particular political tribe), but the right question is ‘who could do it better?’ I look at McDonnell with his ‘wanting to overthrow capitalism and for the UK to become a socialist society’ and have no doubt that it isn’t him.

Another right question you could ask would be ‘who could deliver an improved system of industrial relations in this country?’ I look at McCluskey bankrolling Labour and whipping in its supporters and immediately conclude, not the current version of Labour.

Finally, I think you fall into the trap of assuming that your views of what Labour should be about actually count for something. I have no doubt that the average Labour member doesn't want to do a Venezuela or ‘overthrow capitalism' as per McDonnell, but it isn’t going to be the average Labour Party member who is running the country if a Labour government was returned. It’s going to be Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, McCluskey, Serwotka et al.

P.s. I note you comment about Trump and Brexit, which you attribute, as I understand it, to neo-liberalism. You voted for Brexit - what are you saying, that you abandoned reason and simply did do out of protest?

If you want my opinion , the current hierarchy at the Labour Party even in government won't have the majority or a long enough tenure to act out on many of their proposals , they'd need 3 terms consecutively and huge majorities , won't happen .

In fact I can see the party splitting post brexit and a new party formed by the centre ground , possibly with the Lib Dems .


I can see the tory party still tearing itself in two also with the end result that nobody in British politics will be able to earn a majority in parliament .

All three of the parties will either have to work together or we will implode .

I've stated why I voted leave as you well know , because I don't want to be ruled from Brussels as part of a European super state which is the way they want to go in my opinion it had nothing to do with neoliberalism , it's effects on myself and my partner at our time of life luckily don't hit us too much , I use the word luckily rather than anything else you might note .

[monty_rhodes]

Lol..democratic socialism, so you finally agree there isn’t anything democratic about our Labour Party...one man ten thousand votes

The idea that a bunch of ******* speculators sitting round in Bristol wine bars putting the world to rights in between skiing holidays qualify as "most Labour supporters" is ludicrous. The working class Labour voters up here have never heard of the "Nordic model", a model that anyway is collapsing under the pressure of among other things the immigration that John is so fond of.

[animallittle3]

My old nan bless her loved the tories , not sure whether she voted for them .

Lovely man Mr Heath I can still hear her say , all miners were nasty , greedy and lazy because they were always on strike , she didn't like Harold Wilson , a ruffian with no manners .

She worked about 4 cleaning jobs 6 days a week , brought 7 kids up on her own after my granddad was killed in the war , 3 of them she took in off the street because of a family who had both tragedy and problems .

Without the welfare state she'd probably would have struggled to leave the mission she and her kids lived in after my granddads death .

Her council house at Wilthorpe was a palace , huge back garden , incredibly nice area .

Worshipped the royal family too , some members of the royal family had significant links to the Nazi party who in effect ended her husbands life

Perceptions are my point and how people view the world .

Loved my gran with all my heart but it's a funny world at times .

[Ericsladkilnhurst]

Edward Heath put us miners on a cost of living rise, so every week got a nice bonus, but soon
has Labour got back in, they stopped it.

[BigLadonOS]

You can say whatever you want about him to be honest and I bet you couldn't come anywhere near close to what MT did to this country.