Beggars

[mickd1961]

If Brexit goes ahead, there will be more beggars on the streets than there are now. It is just ludicrous to go ahead with this shambles. As much as I dislike referenda, we badly need another vote to stop the madness. A general election would be a waste of time as both main parties are just as divided over the issue. Dump Brexit.

Okay then Kets....we just keep having a vote until you remoaners get the result you want then do we?

Do you believe in democracy or only when it suits you?

[kettering_baggie]

I don’t believe in running towards a cliff edge wearing a blindfold. Also, I don’t want the country to be run by the idiots that champion Brexit. At least those remainers in Parliament have some degree of common sense.

Anyway, the villain of the piece is that fool Cameron. The result of his stupidity has split the country in half. Referenda are too divisive to be a tool of government.

[mickd1961]

I don’t believe in running towards a cliff edge wearing a blindfold. Also, I don’t want the country to be run by the idiots that champion Brexit. At least those remainers in Parliament have some degree of common sense.

Anyway, the villain of the piece is that fool Cameron. The result of his stupidity has split the country in half. Referenda are too divisive to be a tool of government.

Just so as I fully understand......we keep on voting until we get the result you want?

[WBA123]

Okay then Kets....we just keep having a vote until you remoaners get the result you want then do we?

Do you believe in democracy or only when it suits you?

People are hijacking the democratic process here.

Firstly, the referendum was completely flawed, in that people were lied to and mislead. Secondly, its not anti democratic to have another democratic vote, its probably the opposite.

Thirdly, flipping it on its head - I could argue that leaving with no deal is anti democratic, because no one can confirm that all 17m people who voted leave, voted in favour of a no deal Brexit. In my view there is no mandate for it. Or did they all vote in favour of Theresa May's Chequers deal?

But mostly, everyone who voted in the last referendum have more information available to them about the outlook of leaving the EU now than what they did 2 years ago to make an informed decision.

There is no doubt in the short to mid term, Brexit will make us poorer. I can't see how anyone can dispute that.

[9goals2hattricks3pen]

People are hijacking the democratic process here.

Firstly, the referendum was completely flawed, in that people were lied to and mislead. Secondly, its not anti democratic to have another democratic vote, its probably the opposite.

Thirdly, flipping it on its head - I could argue that leaving with no deal is anti democratic, because no one can confirm that all 17m people who voted leave, voted in favour of a no deal Brexit. In my view there is no mandate for it. Or did they all vote in favour of Theresa May's Chequers deal?

But mostly, everyone who voted in the last referendum have more information available to them about the outlook of leaving the EU now than what they did 2 years ago to make an informed decision.

There is no doubt in the short to mid term, Brexit will make us poorer. I can't see how anyone can dispute that.

There is no doubt in the short to mid term the biggest threat to our prosperity by a huge margin is not Brexit but a Jeremy Corbyn led Goverment. I can't see how anyone can dispute that.

[Albionic68]

People are hijacking the democratic process here.

Firstly, the referendum was completely flawed, in that people were lied to and mislead. Secondly, its not anti democratic to have another democratic vote, its probably the opposite.

Thirdly, flipping it on its head - I could argue that leaving with no deal is anti democratic, because no one can confirm that all 17m people who voted leave, voted in favour of a no deal Brexit. In my view there is no mandate for it. Or did they all vote in favour of Theresa May's Chequers deal?

But mostly, everyone who voted in the last referendum have more information available to them about the outlook of leaving the EU now than what they did 2 years ago to make an informed decision.

There is no doubt in the short to mid term, Brexit will make us poorer. I can't see how anyone can dispute that.

Hello 123.

I don’t mean to be facetious but if the referendum was completely flawed on the grounds that people were lied to and misled, then every local and national election I’ve ever voted in could be described as the same. So by using your frame of reference for what is or isn’t democratic we’d need to rerun every election since I turned eigh**** in 1986. Well it’s only fair really, I didn’t agree with a lot of the outcomes. Out of nothing more than idle curiosity would you have been so keen on a second referendum had the majority voted to remain?

Flipping things on their head you’ve absolutely no idea whether others voted remain for the exact same reasons you did either. Did they do so with a desire for greater integration with the EU at some future time, trepidation over the unknown or just a willingness to avoid rocking the boat? Did you all vote for a future European Army ala Juncker’s ideal? Did you all vote for whatever crazy idea pops out of some EU Commission quango at some future point? No, you probably didn’t. Is that anti-democratic too then?

I’m pulling your leg and playing devil’s advocate here, but you may all as well have voted for all those different things as you don’t know for certain what the EU’s agenda is going forward. There is more than an element of the unknown in any vote and subsequent outcome. You state people are more informed now but are they really? Or have they just been force fed more of the same from a different latrine thus becoming even more entrenched in other people’s sh it? And if the British electorate are now more informed, what will your response be if the result once again goes against your hopes, dreams and future aspirations?

Only the naive or stupid would suggest there’ll be no short to medium term issues untangling ourselves from the EU and securing future trade deals. For anyone to suggest it’s going to be plain sailing across an open and calm sea would be ridiculous. But what about the long term outcomes, will we be better off in future? Or will we definitely be worse off? Who knows? Would we definitely be better off in the long term if we were to remain? I don’t know, do you? I may use this here internet thingy and Google translate to ask a few Italians and Greeks what they think.

What I fervently believe though is the EU should never have expanded to the number of nations currently under its umbrella. Rather than diversifying our collective economic portfolio, I believe they’re diluting the economic gene pool. For me it isn’t a case of whether we should leave, but whether we’ve left it too late for me to see sufficient long term gains in my lifetime.

Toodle pip and all of the very best chap .

[mickd1961]

Hello 123.

I don’t mean to be facetious but if the referendum was completely flawed on the grounds that people were lied to and misled, then every local and national election I’ve ever voted in could be described as the same. So by using your frame of reference for what is or isn’t democratic we’d need to rerun every election since I turned eigh**** in 1986. Well it’s only fair really, I didn’t agree with a lot of the outcomes. Out of nothing more than idle curiosity would you have been so keen on a second referendum had the majority voted to remain?

Flipping things on their head you’ve absolutely no idea whether others voted remain for the exact same reasons you did either. Did they do so with a desire for greater integration with the EU at some future time, trepidation over the unknown or just a willingness to avoid rocking the boat? Did you all vote for a future European Army ala Juncker’s ideal? Did you all vote for whatever crazy idea pops out of some EU Commission quango at some future point? No, you probably didn’t. Is that anti-democratic too then?

I’m pulling your leg and playing devil’s advocate here, but you may all as well have voted for all those different things as you don’t know for certain what the EU’s agenda is going forward. There is more than an element of the unknown in any vote and subsequent outcome. You state people are more informed now but are they really? Or have they just been force fed more of the same from a different latrine thus becoming even more entrenched in other people’s sh it? And if the British electorate are now more informed, what will your response be if the result once again goes against your hopes, dreams and future aspirations?

Only the naive or stupid would suggest there’ll be no short to medium term issues untangling ourselves from the EU and securing future trade deals. For anyone to suggest it’s going to be plain sailing across an open and calm sea would be ridiculous. But what about the long term outcomes, will we be better off in future? Or will we definitely be worse off? Who knows? Would we definitely be better off in the long term if we were to remain? I don’t know, do you? I may use this here internet thingy and Google translate to ask a few Italians and Greeks what they think.

What I fervently believe though is the EU should never have expanded to the number of nations currently under its umbrella. Rather than diversifying our collective economic portfolio, I believe they’re diluting the economic gene pool. For me it isn’t a case of whether we should leave, but whether we’ve left it too late for me to see sufficient long term gains in my lifetime.

Toodle pip and all of the very best chap .

The usual brilliant piece of prose by you 68.

The remarkably sharp Sir John Nott,former Tory minister was on SKY this morning and at 86 still as sharp a tart grasping the fiver before a blow job.

He echoed my simple sentiments on Europe in that he voted to join the “Common Market” and that this was never described as something that would become a political union.

So if we’re going to be preached to about Brexit being a “lie” then let’s accept the Common Market idea was a lie and that politicians stitched us all up.

In that regard we call it quits and revert back to what we were sold back in 74/75 which was a free trade agreement which is what we are requesting now.

Seems fair doesn’t it?

[WBA123]

Hello 123.

I don’t mean to be facetious but if the referendum was completely flawed on the grounds that people were lied to and misled, then every local and national election I’ve ever voted in could be described as the same. So by using your frame of reference for what is or isn’t democratic we’d need to rerun every election since I turned eigh**** in 1986. Well it’s only fair really, I didn’t agree with a lot of the outcomes. Out of nothing more than idle curiosity would you have been so keen on a second referendum had the majority voted to remain?

Flipping things on their head you’ve absolutely no idea whether others voted remain for the exact same reasons you did either. Did they do so with a desire for greater integration with the EU at some future time, trepidation over the unknown or just a willingness to avoid rocking the boat? Did you all vote for a future European Army ala Juncker’s ideal? Did you all vote for whatever crazy idea pops out of some EU Commission quango at some future point? No, you probably didn’t. Is that anti-democratic too then?

I’m pulling your leg and playing devil’s advocate here, but you may all as well have voted for all those different things as you don’t know for certain what the EU’s agenda is going forward. There is more than an element of the unknown in any vote and subsequent outcome. You state people are more informed now but are they really? Or have they just been force fed more of the same from a different latrine thus becoming even more entrenched in other people’s sh it? And if the British electorate are now more informed, what will your response be if the result once again goes against your hopes, dreams and future aspirations?

Only the naive or stupid would suggest there’ll be no short to medium term issues untangling ourselves from the EU and securing future trade deals. For anyone to suggest it’s going to be plain sailing across an open and calm sea would be ridiculous. But what about the long term outcomes, will we be better off in future? Or will we definitely be worse off? Who knows? Would we definitely be better off in the long term if we were to remain? I don’t know, do you? I may use this here internet thingy and Google translate to ask a few Italians and Greeks what they think.

What I fervently believe though is the EU should never have expanded to the number of nations currently under its umbrella. Rather than diversifying our collective economic portfolio, I believe they’re diluting the economic gene pool. For me it isn’t a case of whether we should leave, but whether we’ve left it too late for me to see sufficient long term gains in my lifetime.

Toodle pip and all of the very best chap .

You make some interesting points;

In terms of local and national elections, you do get the chance to vote again every 4/5 years. This referendum instance is different because we may not have another vote for 40 years..

Would I have been keen on a second referendum had the majority voted to remain? No is the answer, but if remain voters felt they had been deceived I could understand their point of view calling for a 2nd referendum.

I think your 3rd point doesn't make any sense to me, because the UK have a veto over issues such as an EU army. The EU army was just another load of rubbish from the Right Wing rags. But if this was to ever happen, our government, who we democratically vote in, could literally have just vetoed the EU army plan or any other 'quango' idea. That is democracy and its also written into EU law.

I would think 2 years of Brexit being in the news every day has made the population more informed, but this is just my opinion. If the result of a 2nd referendum was leave again, despite not understanding the result whatsoever, I'd respect it. I can't speak for others though.

Long term outcomes of Brexit - who knows. Flip a coin in the air maybe? Rees-Mogg, who spouts nothing but rubbish anyway, said that the benefits could take 50 years. If he is right, then even my kids won't see the full benefits until they're approaching retirement age.

My opinion is this, being in the EU we're better off economically, we're more secure, health and food standards are higher, we have greater global influence and we have the opportunity to live, work and travel in 27 other countries.

And in my opinion, there is not one tangible benefit to leaving the EU.

And going back to the origin of the whole thread, which were beggars on the street. I do agree with Kettering that the number of homeless is more likely to go up because of Brexit than down. Because if we remain in the EU, we'll be better off economically and it will enable us to have more government funds for social issues such as these.