O/T DDay for Brexit..well sort of...

[MillerBill]

The media's Project Fear is back in full swing bigging up Mark Carney's "no deal " speech as a forecast of economic disaster but failing to tell us this was his WORST CASE scenario appraisal. Unfortunately these scare tactics are beginning to influence people. When Tory grandees like Ken Clarke are now supporting May's deal we should be worried. Come on Mr Corbyn and get behind what most Labour supporters voted for in the referendum. Can't see how remaining as EU lapdogs will help his political aspirations.

Corbyn needs to sort out what he ACTUALLY stands for.He has done a " U Turn",after condemning the EU all his political lifetime, he has rowed in with Islington lovie dovies .The likes of Geldoff and his very wealthy layabout friends on that millionaire's yacht who put two fingers up at the downtrodden trawlermen, who were protesting about the EU was an absolute disgrace!! Come on Corbyn be honest,why be on the side of big business who are trying to please the shareholders by having a cosy relationship with the corrupt EU.Yes "Project fear" will be in full swing again with all the exaggerated predictions based on the worst possible outcomes.They never get it right but always seem to get a lot of coverage through the BBC and other networks who support the EU.

[Exiletyke]

Corbyn needs to sort out what he ACTUALLY stands for.He has done a " U Turn",after condemning the EU all his political lifetime, he has rowed in with Islington lovie dovies .The likes of Geldoff and his very wealthy layabout friends on that millionaire's yacht who put two fingers up at the downtrodden trawlermen, who were protesting about the EU was an absolute disgrace!! Come on Corbyn be honest,why be on the side of big business who are trying to please the shareholders by having a cosy relationship with the corrupt EU.Yes "Project fear" will be in full swing again with all the exaggerated predictions based on the worst possible outcomes.They never get it right but always seem to get a lot of coverage through the BBC and other networks who support the EU.

I actually agree with that post

[ragingpup]

Corbyn needs to sort out what he ACTUALLY stands for.He has done a " U Turn",after condemning the EU all his political lifetime, he has rowed in with Islington lovie dovies .The likes of Geldoff and his very wealthy layabout friends on that millionaire's yacht who put two fingers up at the downtrodden trawlermen, who were protesting about the EU was an absolute disgrace!! Come on Corbyn be honest,why be on the side of big business who are trying to please the shareholders by having a cosy relationship with the corrupt EU.Yes "Project fear" will be in full swing again with all the exaggerated predictions based on the worst possible outcomes.They never get it right but always seem to get a lot of coverage through the BBC and other networks who support the EU.

Good post Bill. Similar to Lasterman above. I get your frustration for Corbyn to come out in favour of hard Brexit.

But can anyone explain how it might benefit Corbyn and the Labour Party of the last manifesto to sever their ties with the EU, especially the single market and customs union? What exactly are the EU doing that would stop Corbyn carrying out his manifesto commitments? I was wrong in thinking that the EU might stop Labour improving workers and environmental rights but Kerr has put me right on that - they could not stop him doing so if he so wished.

You might know his prior anti-EU speeches better than me, I don't know exactly why he has opposed it, but I'm guessing it is on the lines of opposing their centrist neo-liberal outlook. And I get that, I would agree with him, but trying to be pragmatic here, I can't see how a Labour party would hugely benefit from a Hard Brexit? How would Corbyn's manifesto aims be improved by a Hard Brexit along the lines of that you want to see? Maybe someone could help me on that one?

[millmoormagic]

Corbyn needs to sort out what he ACTUALLY stands for.He has done a " U Turn",after condemning the EU all his political lifetime, he has rowed in with Islington lovie dovies .The likes of Geldoff and his very wealthy layabout friends on that millionaire's yacht who put two fingers up at the downtrodden trawlermen, who were protesting about the EU was an absolute disgrace!! Come on Corbyn be honest,why be on the side of big business who are trying to please the shareholders by having a cosy relationship with the corrupt EU.Yes "Project fear" will be in full swing again with all the exaggerated predictions based on the worst possible outcomes.They never get it right but always seem to get a lot of coverage through the BBC and other networks who support the EU.

I do understand this argument, Corbyn has indeed always been anti EU, but i think everyone's missing a massive bit of truth about Brexit, every possible outcome IS going to damage the UK, it's people and workforce, it's ability to look after the weakest in society, that's not 'project fear', that i'm afraid is FACT....

[ragingpup]

I do understand this argument, Corbyn has indeed always been anti EU, but i think everyone's missing a massive bit of truth about Brexit, every possible outcome IS going to damage the UK, it's people and workforce, it's ability to look after the weakest in society, that's not 'project fear', that i'm afraid is FACT....

That's pretty much what worries me - it seems clear and obvious that compromises on the terms of trade to create border friction will obviously have a negative impact. I'd need to be pretty convinced about what the positives would be on leaving the EU (or more specifically the Single Market and the CU) to convince me on a harder Brexit and to want to take the economic risk.

[KerrAvon]

That's pretty much what worries me - it seems clear and obvious that compromises on the terms of trade to create border friction will obviously have a negative impact. I'd need to be pretty convinced about what the positives would be on leaving the EU (or more specifically the Single Market and the CU) to convince me on a harder Brexit and to want to take the economic risk.

You are ignoring the FACT that people voted to leave the EU despite clear warnings of the economic consequences of that. You might not like that, it's possible that I don't, but it's what happened.

[ragingpup]

You are ignoring the FACT that people voted to leave the EU despite clear warnings of the economic consequences of that. You might not like that, it's possible that I don't, but it's what happened.

So are you saying that all of the the 52% voted to leave the EU in full awareness of and despite the economic costs that have become increasingly clear since the referendum. Are all 52% happy to take that risk now, in light of more data as to what the different types of deal are?

You seem to know this so tell me: what % of the 52% voted for a no deal and to several all ties with the EU at whatever cost? What % of the 52% voted for a hard Brexit but with a EU deal on trade? What % of the 52% voted for May's deal? What % of the 52% voted for a Norway style deal?

We know that 48% of us voted to Remain.

I'm personally happy to leave the EU but will argue to keep as close trade ties to the EU as possible. What is your preferred outcome in Leaving the EU?

[KerrAvon]

So are you saying that all of the the 52% voted to leave the EU in full awareness of and despite the economic costs that have become increasingly clear since the referendum. Are all 52% happy to take that risk now, in light of more data as to what the different types of deal are?

You seem to know this so tell me: what % of the 52% voted for a no deal and to several all ties with the EU at whatever cost? What % of the 52% voted for a hard Brexit but with a EU deal on trade? What % of the 52% voted for May's deal? What % of the 52% voted for a Norway style deal?

We know that 48% of us voted to Remain.

I'm personally happy to leave the EU but will argue to keep as close trade ties to the EU as possible. What is your preferred outcome in Leaving the EU?

Of course I am not saying that everyone who voted leave was aware of the potential economic costs (I was threatened with a ban on Tykes Mad for pointing some of them out as I was upsetting the ‘I don’t want to hear Polish being spoken’ brigade). I can always tell that you are getting flustered when you start taking such silly ‘straw man’ points. I assume that it happens when you been taken too far away from the comfort of your Momentum issue scripts.

I’m saying that people were warned in clear terms of the possible economic costs and that many chose not to listen, because their own beliefs made them happy to accept the ‘project fear’ tag. And then they voted leave. Do you think the standard of debate would be any better in a further election? I don’t. Hard Brexiteers were busily trashing the BoE’s forecasts today. The EU have made it clear that there will be no renegotiation, but Labour continue to peddle the myth that there can be if they win a GE.

And it’s not all about the economy. In addition there is the social costs of membership. Whatever you and I might think about it, large numbers of people are unsettled and unhappy about the large scale immigration that followed 2004. Perhaps some people made the choice to accept some economic pain to stop that?

You appear willing to ignore the vote and appear happy with Labour going back on their manifesto. That’s fine. It’s your choice.

So suppose you get your second referendum. What questions are going on it? If it’s a three way vote (May’s deal - No deal – Remain) the leavers are going to be up in arms because it’s a rigged election that will split the leave vote. If it’s a two way vote (Remain – Leave) it takes us no further from where we are now and if it’s two way (May – No deal) the remainers will not accept the outcome.

Most importantly, if you manage to obtain a remain vote, where does that leave us? A significant part of the population will feel mightily pyssed off at having their views overturned and you will have set a precedent that if you don’t like the outcome of a referendum, you can bellyache until you get another one. So how many years before the remainers secure a further in out vote? Two years – five years? You would hardly be in a position to be able to argue against having one.

I think it also possible that the referendum may well have changed the relationship between the UK and EU for good. For the last 20 years or so, the UK has been leading a small group of countries who have resisted the federalist instincts and intentions of France and Germany, notably by declining to join the Euro. I wonder whether we would have the credibility to continue that fight if we do a 180 and pull back from Article 50.

In my view, the country voted leave and leave we must. I’m happy to do it on the best terms possible, short of the Brexit in name only of deals like Norway has.

P.s. I hear a whisper that the DUP are taking a kicking from their supporters and are looking for a way to get out of the corner they have painted themselves into over May's deal. Who knows?

[ragingpup]

Of course I am not saying that everyone who voted leave was aware of the potential economic costs (I was threatened with a ban on Tykes Mad for pointing some of them out as I was upsetting the ‘I don’t want to hear Polish being spoken’ brigade). I can always tell that you are getting flustered when you start taking such silly ‘straw man’ points. I assume that it happens when you been taken too far away from the comfort of your Momentum issue scripts.

I’m saying that people were warned in clear terms of the possible economic costs and that many chose not to listen, because their own beliefs made them happy to accept the ‘project fear’ tag. And then they voted leave. Do you think the standard of debate would be any better in a further election? I don’t. Hard Brexiteers were busily trashing the BoE’s forecasts today. The EU have made it clear that there will be no renegotiation, but Labour continue to peddle the myth that there can be if they win a GE.

And it’s not all about the economy. In addition there is the social costs of membership. Whatever you and I might think about it, large numbers of people are unsettled and unhappy about the large scale immigration that followed 2004. Perhaps some people made the choice to accept some economic pain to stop that?

You appear willing to ignore the vote and appear happy with Labour going back on their manifesto. That’s fine. It’s your choice.

So suppose you get your second referendum. What questions are going on it? If it’s a three way vote (May’s deal - No deal – Remain) the leavers are going to be up in arms because it’s a rigged election that will split the leave vote. If it’s a two way vote (Remain – Leave) it takes us no further from where we are now and if it’s two way (May – No deal) the remainers will not accept the outcome.

Most importantly, if you manage to obtain a remain vote, where does that leave us? A significant part of the population will feel mightily pyssed off at having their views overturned and you will have set a precedent that if you don’t like the outcome of a referendum, you can bellyache until you get another one. So how many years before the remainers secure a further in out vote? Two years – five years? You would hardly be in a position to be able to argue against having one.

I think it also possible that the referendum may well have changed the relationship between the UK and EU for good. For the last 20 years or so, the UK has been leading a small group of countries who have resisted the federalist instincts and intentions of France and Germany, notably by declining to join the Euro. I wonder whether we would have the credibility to continue that fight if we do a 180 and pull back from Article 50.

In my view, the country voted leave and leave we must. I’m happy to do it on the best terms possible, short of the Brexit in name only of deals like Norway has.

P.s. I hear a whisper that the DUP are taking a kicking from their supporters and are looking for a way to get out of the corner they have painted themselves into over May's deal. Who knows?

Where have I said that I am in favour of a 2nd referendum? My last line in the quote you reply to was "I'm personally happy to leave the EU but will argue to keep as close trade ties to the EU as possible". So please take that to mean that I am not supporting a 2nd referendum.

You then say "In my view, the country voted leave and leave we must. I’m happy to do it on the best terms possible, short of the Brexit in name only of deals like Norway has.". So are you convinced that May's deal is the best that we can get?

So what do you think we should do if this doesn't get through the commons? At this point do you want us to walk away with no deal? Or would you try to make an amendment to the deal and take it back to the EU? (if they allow us to)

If so, what amendments would you be willing to accept?