O/T The Worst PM In History

[stripes39]

So please do tell me, how many European laws negatively affect your life....

To answer his question do you believe that the electorate at the time of voting to join was mislead or told lies about what they were signing up to?

[Leicesterbaggie]

This should never be a reason not to hold a democratic vote.

We've had one, or I thought we had! What will happen, let's say if the remoaners won 51% to 49%? Oh I forgot, that will be OK because it was a democratic vote.

[WBA123]

We've had one, or I thought we had! What will happen, let's say if the remoaners won 51% to 49%? Oh I forgot, that will be OK because it was a democratic vote.

Democracy doesn't stop, it is a continually evolving process. Perhaps we would prefer to remain now and in 5-10 years, we may decide we want to Leave - That is a democratic process. That's why we have a General Election every 4 years. That's why we are not a dictatorship.

It is completely absurd to call a democratic vote, anti-democratic.

In any case, you voted leave, May's deal does that. Are you happy with that outcome? Is that what you voted for? Did all 17m people vote Leave for that or did they vote for a No Deal? Or did they vote for a Norway style deal? I could go on...

A 2nd referendum would clarify what a Leave vote actually is, because most of us don't know. It actually doesn't mandate parliament to do anything because of the open way the referendum was worded.

[phild]

No doubt those who voted to remain knew exactly what they voted for

[WBA123]

To answer his question do you believe that the electorate at the time of voting to join was mislead or told lies about what they were signing up to?

You seem to have completely bypassed the answer to my question with another question.

So let me respond in kind, do you believe that we have been better off for being in the EU since joining than had we not?

Bearing in mind we were labelled 'the sick man of Europe' in the early-mid 70's, we joined the EEC in 1973 and the Common Market in 1975. We have had year on year growth of GDP since (apart from in the global recession on 2008-09). We did it to become more competitive, London became a powerhouse of financial services and now millions of jobs are dependent on international trade - particularly the Single Market.

Meanwhile, this governments abject failures since being in power seem to all go unnoticed. But they have been successful in manipulating unemployment figures, suppressing wage growth and cutting our public services to the bone. And of course doing what all Tories do well, which is overseeing the richest 1% more than doubling their wealth since 2010.

And the EU appear to be the scapegoat for our own Governments failings.

I think many on here are pointing the finger at the wrong administration.

[9goals2hattricks3pen]

You seem to have completely bypassed the answer to my question with another question.

So let me respond in kind, do you believe that we have been better off for being in the EU since joining than had we not?

Bearing in mind we were labelled 'the sick man of Europe' in the early-mid 70's, we joined the EEC in 1973 and the Common Market in 1975. We have had year on year growth of GDP since (apart from in the global recession on 2008-09). We did it to become more competitive, London became a powerhouse of financial services and now millions of jobs are dependent on international trade - particularly the Single Market.

Meanwhile, this governments abject failures since being in power seem to all go unnoticed. But they have been successful in manipulating unemployment figures, suppressing wage growth and cutting our public services to the bone. And of course doing what all Tories do well, which is overseeing the richest 1% more than doubling their wealth since 2010.

And the EU appear to be the scapegoat for our own Governments failings.

I think many on here are pointing the finger at the wrong administration.

But can't you see you are EQUALLY guilty of posting rubbish/lies

In an earlier post you state £1.2 billion as our cost of EU membership. According to the EU Commision figures it's £8.9 billion net.

In the above post

'London BECAME a powerhouse of financial services and now millions of jobs are dependent on international trade - particularly the Single Market'

You have got to be having a laugh. FYI London was a powerhouse of financial services a few hundred years before we joined the EEC. To suggest it was because of EU membership is bonkers beyond belief. Are you suggesting MILLIONS of jobs would be lost if we left?

We were labelled 'The Sick Man of Europe' well after we joined thge EEC. We stopped being so when Thatcher sorted out the unions (imo Callaghan was our worst PM) in the 80's. Nothing to do with the EU. I googled Sick Man of Europe and since 1990 the following countries have been so labelled
Germany
France
Italy
Portugal
Ireland
Greece
Finland
The common denominator for me is they are all EU countries so don't spout at me the daft idea that it's EU membership that is responsible for the UK losing that tag.

So when talking of pointing fingers remember that when you do so 1 is pointing out and 3 are pointing back at yourself.

Now behave!

[Leicesterbaggie]

Democracy doesn't stop, it is a continually evolving process. Perhaps we would prefer to remain now and in 5-10 years, we may decide we want to Leave - That is a democratic process. That's why we have a General Election every 4 years. That's why we are not a dictatorship.

It is completely absurd to call a democratic vote, anti-democratic

In any case, you voted leave, May's deal does that. Are you happy with that outcome? Is that what you voted for? Did all 17m people vote Leave for that or did they vote for a No Deal? Or did they vote for a Norway style deal? I could go on...

A 2nd referendum would clarify what a Leave vote actually is, because most of us don't know. It actually doesn't mandate parliament to do anything because of the open way the referendum was worded.

Yes, like 52% of voters, I voted to leave. However, unlike what remoaners think, I am not stupid and realise that in any deal, compromises on both sides have to be made. May's deal is far from perfect and I don't really want a no deal situation. Having said this, what I am emphatically against is a second referendum. It's the arrogance of remainers that I find abhorant. Basically, they think that if you voted to leave then you're thick. Also, if anybody thinks that we can now make a more informed judgement, they are living in 'cloud cuckoo land'. Both sides make various claims and it depends on which side of the fence you sit, which ones you want to believe. This is why we should stick with the nation's decision and to try and work out the best way to LEAVE.

[WBA123]

Yes, like 52% of voters, I voted to leave. However, unlike what remoaners think, I am not stupid and realise that in any deal, compromises on both sides have to be made. May's deal is far from perfect and I don't really want a no deal situation. Having said this, what I am emphatically against is a second referendum. It's the arrogance of remainers that I find abhorant. Basically, they think that if you voted to leave then you're thick. Also, if anybody thinks that we can now make a more informed judgement, they are living in 'cloud cuckoo land'. Both sides make various claims and it depends on which side of the fence you sit, which ones you want to believe. This is why we should stick with the nation's decision and to try and work out the best way to LEAVE.

I don't think Leave voters are thick, half of my family and friends voted to Leave. And this has divided the country right down the middle, just like you don't like being called thick, I don't like being called 'remoaner' or even worse 'traitor'. That kind of language is pretty shocking.

Whether you voted Leave or Remain, we still want the same things, which is a more prosperous country and a higher standard of living.

But I can't understand statements like this;

"Also, if anybody thinks that we can now make a more informed judgement, they are living in 'cloud cuckoo land'."

It seems clear as day to me that people now know what a Leave vote is starting to look like, either in a no deal scenario or Theresa May's deal.

Both sides did make claims, but surely you can't want us to proceed with a vote which will impact future generations, where the voting public were mislead? And they were mislead.

Not only that, I can't see anyway out of this political deadlock without the need to go the public, either by way of Referendum or General Election.

[stripes39]

You seem to have completely bypassed the answer to my question with another question.

So let me respond in kind, do you believe that we have been better off for being in the EU since joining than had we not?

Bearing in mind we were labelled 'the sick man of Europe' in the early-mid 70's, we joined the EEC in 1973 and the Common Market in 1975. We have had year on year growth of GDP since (apart from in the global recession on 2008-09). We did it to become more competitive, London became a powerhouse of financial services and now millions of jobs are dependent on international trade - particularly the Single Market.

Meanwhile, this governments abject failures since being in power seem to all go unnoticed. But they have been successful in manipulating unemployment figures, suppressing wage growth and cutting our public services to the bone. And of course doing what all Tories do well, which is overseeing the richest 1% more than doubling their wealth since 2010.

And the EU appear to be the scapegoat for our own Governments failings.

I think many on here are pointing the finger at the wrong administration.

I wasn't answering any question. I was just trawling through the thread and read what WBA53 posted that the country was lied to. You didn't respond to his point on the original post although you gave a fairly full response to his other points so I just wondered if you thought that the country was lied to and mislead as to what they were asked to sign up to or not? It's no big deal if you don't wish to answer.

[Leicesterbaggie]

123, I don't want to enter into a slanging match but I have never used the word 'traitor'. Remoaners, yes, because many who voted to remain haven't stopped moaning. Do you honestly think that if the result had gone the other way we would have had the furore that we have had. It would have been accepted and that would have been an end to it. The problem is that the result was totally unexpected by those who wished to remain.