Milkshake Lightweight?

[1959_60]

It's all very interesting 59, I could take issue with you on most of the above, but it's all academic now, we had a referendum three years ago and voted to leave the EU, so what's the point ?

I'm much more interested in your views on democracy, especially the over-arching principal, that in any democratic country the losers of a freely held democratic vote accept the result. And even more important, once that principal has been ditched, what are the prospects for that country continuing to exist as a fully functioning democracy ? And when you come to the only logical conclusion, that democracy cannot survive in such circumstances, what do you envisage replacing it ?

I'll come at it from a different angle Sinkov.

There is an upcoming referendum on whether to continue with our education system or rip it up an replace it.

I start a new group and enlist several charismatic celebrities (Boris, Nigel etc) with the intent of replacing our education system (I'll not tell you who funds us!)

During our campaign we promise much better outcomes for our pupils/students by funding new establishments that would be funded by big businesses who would provide the curriculum so that the pupils/students would be educated to be useful in the real world.

During our campaign we point out that our current educational establishments were full of foreign teachers who were poisoning the minds of the students. And there was going to be a mass intake of new teachers from Eastern Europe whose intention was to radicalise our students thinking. Suitable posters were produced.

We claim that the change over would be the simplest task in human history.

The money saved to the nation would fund the deficit in NHS funding, bring the armed forces up to speed and knock 50 pence off a pint.

Our campaign demonises existing teachers and their leaders as being too bureaucratic and being unaccountable. They are all letting our children down.

Let's take back control of education and give our kids a start in life that they deserve - not one dictated by unelected mandarins.

Any opposition to our campaign (and many experts prove to be against us) will be labelled "Project Fear" and "experts" will be demonised and ridiculed too. "These "experts" have been in charge and it is them that have let our kids down"

Anyway, after starting the campaign a long way behind we end up winning by 52% to 48%, mainly thanks to barnstorming speeches by Boris and Nigel.

But...before the decision has been enacted a lot of detail comes out. Most of the big companies who are going to fund the new system are actually foreign companies based in Saudi Arabia, Russia and China. Our claim that we were going to be swamped by Eastern European teachers who were going to radicalise our kids is disproven. The economic benefits (remember our red bus promising money for the NHS, armed services and cheaper beer?) are debunked and it is forecast that the new system will actually cost us more than the existing one.

Now, would you still argue that "We voted for change and that is democracy"?

Or would you think it right that, once the facts are out, the people have a confirmatory vote on the issue?

[Supersub6]

I'll come at it from a different angle Sinkov.

There is an upcoming referendum on whether to continue with our education system or rip it up an replace it.

I start a new group and enlist several charismatic celebrities (Boris, Nigel etc) with the intent of replacing our education system (I'll not tell you who funds us!)

During our campaign we promise much better outcomes for our pupils/students by funding new establishments that would be funded by big businesses who would provide the curriculum so that the pupils/students would be educated to be useful in the real world.

During our campaign we point out that our current educational establishments were full of foreign teachers who were poisoning the minds of the students. And there was going to be a mass intake of new teachers from Eastern Europe whose intention was to radicalise our students thinking. Suitable posters were produced.

We claim that the change over would be the simplest task in human history.

The money saved to the nation would fund the deficit in NHS funding, bring the armed forces up to speed and knock 50 pence off a pint.

Our campaign demonises existing teachers and their leaders as being too bureaucratic and being unaccountable. They are all letting our children down.

Let's take back control of education and give our kids a start in life that they deserve - not one dictated by unelected mandarins.

Any opposition to our campaign (and many experts prove to be against us) will be labelled "Project Fear" and "experts" will be demonised and ridiculed too. "These "experts" have been in charge and it is them that have let our kids down"

Anyway, after starting the campaign a long way behind we end up winning by 52% to 48%, mainly thanks to barnstorming speeches by Boris and Nigel.

But...before the decision has been enacted a lot of detail comes out. Most of the big companies who are going to fund the new system are actually foreign companies based in Saudi Arabia, Russia and China. Our claim that we were going to be swamped by Eastern European teachers who were going to radicalise our kids is disproven. The economic benefits (remember our red bus promising money for the NHS, armed services and cheaper beer?) are debunked and it is forecast that the new system will actually cost us more than the existing one.

Now, would you still argue that "We voted for change and that is democracy"?

Or would you think it right that, once the facts are out, the people have a confirmatory vote on the issue?

My answer is that I would just consider that it was politicians talking through their arse once again and making false promises that they can change the world. Nothing much changes but lots of time can be wasted by thinking too deeply about it all when there is absolutely beggar all that you can do about it. How did I survive to be a healthy, stress-free 72 year old? I wonder!

[sinkov]

I'll come at it from a different angle Sinkov.

There is an upcoming referendum on whether to continue with our education system or rip it up an replace it.

I start a new group and enlist several charismatic celebrities (Boris, Nigel etc) with the intent of replacing our education system (I'll not tell you who funds us!)

During our campaign we promise much better outcomes for our pupils/students by funding new establishments that would be funded by big businesses who would provide the curriculum so that the pupils/students would be educated to be useful in the real world.

During our campaign we point out that our current educational establishments were full of foreign teachers who were poisoning the minds of the students. And there was going to be a mass intake of new teachers from Eastern Europe whose intention was to radicalise our students thinking. Suitable posters were produced.

We claim that the change over would be the simplest task in human history.

The money saved to the nation would fund the deficit in NHS funding, bring the armed forces up to speed and knock 50 pence off a pint.

Our campaign demonises existing teachers and their leaders as being too bureaucratic and being unaccountable. They are all letting our children down.

Let's take back control of education and give our kids a start in life that they deserve - not one dictated by unelected mandarins.

Any opposition to our campaign (and many experts prove to be against us) will be labelled "Project Fear" and "experts" will be demonised and ridiculed too. "These "experts" have been in charge and it is them that have let our kids down"

Anyway, after starting the campaign a long way behind we end up winning by 52% to 48%, mainly thanks to barnstorming speeches by Boris and Nigel.

But...before the decision has been enacted a lot of detail comes out. Most of the big companies who are going to fund the new system are actually foreign companies based in Saudi Arabia, Russia and China. Our claim that we were going to be swamped by Eastern European teachers who were going to radicalise our kids is disproven. The economic benefits (remember our red bus promising money for the NHS, armed services and cheaper beer?) are debunked and it is forecast that the new system will actually cost us more than the existing one.

Now, would you still argue that "We voted for change and that is democracy"?

Or would you think it right that, once the facts are out, the people have a confirmatory vote on the issue?

I notice you haven't answered my question 59, do you have any idea what replaces our democracy when it's been destroyed, or are you LibDems just going to play silly buggers with the political stability of our country ? You can't just pick and choose which votes you accept and which you don't you know, even Farage recognises this. Deny just one vote and that's the whole system flushed down the toilet, seriously 59, you want to be careful what you wish for, there are some nasty, dangerous people out there, just looking for their chance.

[1959_60]

I notice you haven't answered my question 59, do you have any idea what replaces our democracy when it's been destroyed, or are you LibDems just going to play silly buggers with the political stability of our country ? You can't just pick and choose which votes you accept and which you don't you know, even Farage recognises this. Deny just one vote and that's the whole system flushed down the toilet, seriously 59, you want to be careful what you wish for, there are some nasty, dangerous people out there, just looking for their chance.

And I notice that you haven't answered the question that I posed in the scenario I posted Sinkov!

A confirmatory referendum IS democracy. The people decide the outcome based on having the actual facts to work with.

The Good Friday Agreement is a good example. Are you arguing that that was undemocratic?

What would be undemocratic is enacting something that wasn't promised.

Therefore revoking article 50 without asking the people would be undemocratic.

And a no deal solution would be undemocratic - Farage, Boris, Davis etc were promising us a better deal than we currently have and it would be a very easy deal to broker with the EU.

And David Davis said (and I agree) "If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy"

[sinkov]

And I notice that you haven't answered the question that I posed in the scenario I posted Sinkov!

A confirmatory referendum IS democracy. The people decide the outcome based on having the actual facts to work with.

The scenario was some sort of weird fantasy of yours 59, could we stick to the reality please, that's bizarre enough as it is. You want the people to decide, now that we have the actual facts to work with ? You should seek employment as a stand-up comedian mon ami, you'd do well. This WA which May and the EU have cooked up between them, how many have read it, how many know what it contains, how many are aware of the actual facts buried away inside ? 99.9% of the people in this country have never read it, nor have idea of it's implications, even you who has followed Brexit as closely as anyone, thought it would all be finished with after the two year transition period. No it won't, and if even you aren't aware of what's buried inside there, not many others will be either. But yet you want a vote claiming we now know what we'll be voting for ?

The BBC are always on the look out for lefty comedians 59, they pay well I believe.

[1959_60]

The scenario was some sort of weird fantasy of yours 59, could we stick to the reality please, that's bizarre enough as it is. You want the people to decide, now that we have the actual facts to work with ? You should seek employment as a stand-up comedian mon ami, you'd do well. This WA which May and the EU have cooked up between them, how many have read it, how many know what it contains, how many are aware of the actual facts buried away inside ? 99.9% of the people in this country have never read it, nor have idea of it's implications, even you who has followed Brexit as closely as anyone, thought it would all be finished with after the two year transition period. No it won't, and if even you aren't aware of what's buried inside there, not many others will be either. But yet you want a vote claiming we now know what we'll be voting for ?

The BBC are always on the look out for lefty comedians 59, they pay well I believe.

As Bob Monkhouse said, "My friends laughed when I told then I was going to be a comedian. They aren't laughing now"

The fact remains that we now have the information we need. Neither you or I will read the documents verbatim, but during a campaign neither side will be allowed to get away with inventing stuff which is not in the documents.
There will still be plenty of room for argy bargy but this time we will have a document to fact check what we are being told.

And is my scenario that much different than the Brexit thing? I presume that, because you haven't answered, you would support the proposal to be enacted - in the name of democracy?

[army88]

I'll come at it from a different angle Sinkov.

There is an upcoming referendum on whether to continue with our education system or rip it up an replace it.

I start a new group and enlist several charismatic celebrities (Boris, Nigel etc) with the intent of replacing our education system (I'll not tell you who funds us!)

During our campaign we promise much better outcomes for our pupils/students by funding new establishments that would be funded by big businesses who would provide the curriculum so that the pupils/students would be educated to be useful in the real world.

During our campaign we point out that our current educational establishments were full of foreign teachers who were poisoning the minds of the students. And there was going to be a mass intake of new teachers from Eastern Europe whose intention was to radicalise our students thinking. Suitable posters were produced.

We claim that the change over would be the simplest task in human history.

The money saved to the nation would fund the deficit in NHS funding, bring the armed forces up to speed and knock 50 pence off a pint.

Our campaign demonises existing teachers and their leaders as being too bureaucratic and being unaccountable. They are all letting our children down.

Let's take back control of education and give our kids a start in life that they deserve - not one dictated by unelected mandarins.

Any opposition to our campaign (and many experts prove to be against us) will be labelled "Project Fear" and "experts" will be demonised and ridiculed too. "These "experts" have been in charge and it is them that have let our kids down"

Anyway, after starting the campaign a long way behind we end up winning by 52% to 48%, mainly thanks to barnstorming speeches by Boris and Nigel.

But...before the decision has been enacted a lot of detail comes out. Most of the big companies who are going to fund the new system are actually foreign companies based in Saudi Arabia, Russia and China. Our claim that we were going to be swamped by Eastern European teachers who were going to radicalise our kids is disproven. The economic benefits (remember our red bus promising money for the NHS, armed services and cheaper beer?) are debunked and it is forecast that the new system will actually cost us more than the existing one.

Now, would you still argue that "We voted for change and that is democracy"?

Or would you think it right that, once the facts are out, the people have a confirmatory vote on the issue?

Now I get it 59-60

With analogy like that you should have been a politician.
There is nothing to say that a few white lies were not told on every side is there?

[1959_60]

Now I get it 59-60

With analogy like that you should have been a politician.
There is nothing to say that a few white lies were not told on every side is there?

Loads of little white lies Army, and quite a few big black ones too.

All the more reason to let the people have the final say on the deal - now they are more sure of the actual truth.