O/T DDay for Brexit..well sort of...

[animallittle3]

Are you saying that these businesses only went to the wall because of the EU? Are you saying that businesses won't go to the wall once we have left the EU?

The issue is that much current businesses are 45 years established with eu links as our closest neighbours, and that the end result of suddenly ending those trade arrangements is an unnecessary one with insufficient benefits. Im not an ardent remainer, was willing to comprise but its becoming increasingly apparent that with two extremes unfeeling to compromise, then many of us in the middle will be forced to choose sides in an all our nothing struggle that will run for a generation. Pathetic on both sides, including my family!

There never was any middle ground raging as defined by the referendum ballot paper .

I've tried the middle ground route myself earlier in this process but the middle ground is as easier to solve as it is to find the proverbial needle in the haystack so as a leaver it's best to give it up , no fecker else is giving an inch so why should I .

The only middle ground still doing the rounds at this stage is the one hijacked by parliament , democracy deniers and remainers who couldn't take the defeat .

The real power and clout is about to be transferred to the hard brexiteers both in our own parliament and Brussels .

This is a consequence of middle ground fecking about , democracy deniers and remainers who seem to believe losing a referendum somehow constitutes a replay with extra time and penalties if needed to overturn it .

I will tick every box necessary in the Farage camp to ensure we leave the EU , whatever it takes .

The Labour Party may want to position themselves to accept our departure from the EU on WTO terms and wake up to where today's tunes are getting played .

Globalisation kills the working class and one arm around unskilled Johnny Foreigner isn't a great image .

If they want to see power anytime soon they'd better accept that and wake up to the fact London is only a part of the UK and not the be all and end all .

The working class don't give a shyte about refugees from war torn country's or Polish migrants whilst working their puds off for buttons an hour at Amazon and visiting a foodbank to feed themselves .

Yes it's a harsh viewpoint but it's also a FACT outside the metropolitan bubble where the losers of globalisation reside .

The very people they should be looking out for and were founded to do so .

[wendun]

Animal, if I thought that by leaving we could escape the adverse consequences of globalisation I'd vote leave like a shot. I don't like free movement, I don't like immigration and I don't like Labour supporting a new definition of Islamophobia which will basically stop anyone criticising any aspect of Islam and make the current protests in Birmingham the norm in many aspects of our life. But Farage and the Tories don't care about the workers. They want a low wage, low tax, low protection economy with a Welfare State cut to the bone. Well that's my fear anyway. We'll probably soon find out.

[BigLadonOS]

I think we're just looking at it from a vote share point of view, looking at the numbers who voted hard brexit and the numbers who voted remain. As was the referendum. It's as simple as that. I'm sorry the maths doesn't give you what you want to support your cause. You'll just have to rely on Boris. As I said, good luck..

OK lets look at numbers. If you take the remain parties numbers before the 2016 referendum IE, Lib Dems, Green party etc you have to take account that those parties were basing there manifesto on issues other than leave or remain.

You can only take into account the gains made by those parties when adding remain to it. IE without remain as part of its manifesto this time how would they have done? Would the Lib Dems have no votes? would the green party have no votes? would any other remain party have had no votes?

What you are saying is that every vote made for those remain parties was for remain only and that is not the truth. There are many reasons why the Green party voted Green and not only because of the remain vote. The 2 parties that stood for the leave or remain campaign and nothing else the remain party got obliterated by the Brexit party it is that simple. We know for a fact that the Brexit party voters voted on leave and the Lib Dems voted on remain the rest is down to assumption. The party that won the head to head for leave or remain only was the BREXIT PARTY BY A MARGIN OF 12% it is as simple as that.

[animallittle3]

A little bit unfair on Corbyn animal. He had no chance of ever really negotiating with the waste of space May.

That aside BigLad opposing the worst two PM's in history on an austerity ticket and the debacle that is brexit they should be 20 points minimum in front of the Cons in the opinion polls .

If you can't win under those circumstances then you ain't ever going to win .

[ragingpup]

OK lets look at numbers. If you take the remain parties numbers before the 2016 referendum IE, Lib Dems, Green party etc you have to take account that those parties were basing there manifesto on issues other than leave or remain.

You can only take into account the gains made by those parties when adding remain to it. IE without remain as part of its manifesto this time how would they have done? Would the Lib Dems have no votes? would the green party have no votes? would any other remain party have had no votes?

What you are saying is that every vote made for those remain parties was for remain only and that is not the truth. There are many reasons why the Green party voted Green and not only because of the remain vote. The 2 parties that stood for the leave campaign and nothing else got obliterated by the Brexit party it is that simple. We know for a fact that the Brexit party voters voted on leave and the Lib Dems voted on remain the rest is down to assumption. The party that won the head to head for leave or remain only was the BREXIT PARTY BY A MARGIN OF 12% it is as simple as that.

Again, this is more skewing of facts to fit your desired outcome. The Green Party made no secret that its prime objective was now to support remain. Read their manifesto. As I said, my wife, a wandering labour party member placed her vote with them as did others in my family. Their manifesto and all arguments in this current campaign was completely remain. Any Green voter, whether old or new, was a supporter of the remain vote. And Change UK only came into existence to support remain. Live with it. You're a significant (very) vocal minority.

[BigLadonOS]

That aside BigLad opposing the worst two PM's in history on an austerity ticket and the debacle that is brexit they should be 20 points minimum in front of the Cons in the opinion polls .

If you can't win under those circumstances then you ain't ever going to win .

I agree with you animal but in a slightly softer way than what you are saying. I agree than Labour have made a complete hash of Brexit. I also agree that the Labour party did not make it clear enough as to where they stood but if they can get their act together in time for a GE I think they will still be one of the big parties and will get votes on a massive scale depending on what way they go on Brexit.

[animallittle3]

Animal, if I thought that by leaving we could escape the adverse consequences of globalisation I'd vote leave like a shot. I don't like free movement, I don't like immigration and I don't like Labour supporting a new definition of Islamophobia which will basically stop anyone criticising any aspect of Islam and make the current protests in Birmingham the norm in many aspects of our life. But Farage and the Tories don't care about the workers. They want a low wage, low tax, low protection economy with a Welfare State cut to the bone. Well that's my fear anyway. We'll probably soon find out.

I only see Farage as a convenient idiot Wendun , I know he and his like have no interest in the likes of myself .

I accept my stance is a gamble and I could well be the turkey that voted for xmas .

Life is full of shakes of the dice and nobody achieved anything without doing so from time to time .

The fact I've had to go down this route tells you everything about the current Labour Party , a party I've supported the majority of my working life from a funding point of view and activism .

[BigLadonOS]

Again, this is more skewing of facts to fit your desired outcome. The Green Party made no secret that its prime objective was now to support remain. Read their manifesto. As I said, my wife, a wandering labour party member placed her vote with them as did others in my family. Their manifesto and all arguments in this current campaign was completely remain. Any Green voter, whether old or new, was a supporter of the remain vote. And Change UK only came into existence to support remain. Live with it. You're a significant (very) vocal minority.

**** me pup you just do not get it. those extra votes (or gains they made) are the only votes you can take into account. You cannot take the rest of the votes as read that they were for remain which is what you and remainers seem to think. It is impossible to know that is the case and therefore an assumption and not fact. I know this for a fact because I know voters for the green party personally who voted Green on Green polices and who dont give a **** about the leave debate. How many others voted green on green policies but couldnt give a **** about the leave bit of it? it's all guess work and assumption.

[ragingpup]

There never was any middle ground raging as defined by the referendum ballot paper .

I've tried the middle ground route myself earlier in this process but the middle ground is as easier to solve as it is to find the proverbial needle in the haystack so as a leaver it's best to give it up , no fecker else is giving an inch so why should I .

The only middle ground still doing the rounds at this stage is the one hijacked by parliament , democracy deniers and remainers who couldn't take the defeat .

The real power and clout is about to be transferred to the hard brexiteers both in our own parliament and Brussels .

This is a consequence of middle ground fecking about , democracy deniers and remainers who seem to believe losing a referendum somehow constitutes a replay with extra time and penalties if needed to overturn it .

I will tick every box necessary in the Farage camp to ensure we leave the EU , whatever it takes .

The Labour Party may want to position themselves to accept our departure from the EU on WTO terms and wake up to where today's tunes are getting played .

Globalisation kills the working class and one arm around unskilled Johnny Foreigner isn't a great image .

If they want to see power anytime soon they'd better accept that and wake up to the fact London is only a part of the UK and not the be all and end all .

The working class don't give a shyte about refugees from war torn country's or Polish migrants whilst working their puds off for buttons an hour at Amazon and visiting a foodbank to feed themselves .

Yes it's a harsh viewpoint but it's also a FACT outside the metropolitan bubble where the losers of globalisation reside .

The very people they should be looking out for and were founded to do so .

But any would Labour, with 65%voters supporting remain support Leave. It would be madness.

The working class aren't working for buttons or visiting food banks because of immigration. They are doing so because of UK domestic political policies, voted for by UK voters (sadly). We could have double brexit with waffles and prostitutes, but afterwards the working class will be collecting buttons and some of them tins. As Monty said, you are likely to find a response being a super low tax, low wage, low rights, economy with the wage undercutting (such as it goes on) done by non eu workers.

I'm afraid what we will see now is Labour doing the opposite of what you'd like, falling behind remain (as clearly compromise, grown up as it might be, doesn't work with ****ng Brexit, and their defecting remain voters will join with the entrenched remain supporters, which will further bolster remain numbers. Not in Rotherham and many such towns though. You're right, and everyone here is right that politics is London centric and neglects the North. That has to be addressed. But brexit ain't the answer to those problems. They'll stay until the economy addresses the imbalance properly, not through scapegoating.

[KerrAvon]

I accept my stance is a gamble and I could well be the turkey that voted for xmas .

If you think a WTO outcome represents a path out of globalisation then you better nip out and buy the cranberry sauce.