O/T DDay for Brexit..well sort of...

[great_fire]

Now the top EU positions are taken up by federalists who hate Britain and think we have been putting the brakes on their "dream" of a United States of Europe leaving without a deal has become even more likely.

[BigLadonOS]

Sorry but you are pointing out potential dangers of what might happen if we had stayed in the EU. And you are backing that up with a mixture of opinion pieces and short pieces of EU figures stating the direction that they would like to go in but in no way have these become anything more than vague ideas, let alone the fear that we wouldn't have the powers to veto and block such developments. You are passing these off as facts and they are simply not facts. This is very different to expressing concerns about the way the future directions, which are quite valid. But many Leave folks are twisting these beyond belief.

Do you mean the same way that remain are using the scare tactics as fact when really they have no clue?

Also we are signed up to quite a lot of things that if passed in the EU would tie us up in those things and that is a fact it is not merely guess work as you suggest it is.

Under May we are signed up in principle of forming an EU army and again this is not fiction it is a fact.

Also if we did try to stop austerity with a GDP at 2.2% we would be breaking EU law as it states in the laws of the EU that 1.6% is where all member countries must be before austerity measures can be stopped. Weather or not they would fine is up for debate but the fact is they are the rules.

Sorry I have just read the up to date rules which state that GDP has to be over 3% before austerity laws in the EU are forced upon us and as we are only 2.2% of GDP you are correct that we can stop austerity whenever we would like to.

[ragingpup]

Argue with this fact.

“The lack of influence is quite marked. Over the past twenty years… there have been 72 occasions in the Council of Ministers where the United Kingdom has opposed a particular measure. Of those 72 occasions, we have been successful precisely 0 times and we have lost 72 times. That is a fact.”

Oh my Lord. BL, all you have done is exrtracted the 'Leave argument quote' from the full fact doc I shared (aiming to get balance and perspective into the discussion) and left out both the 'Remain argument quote' (which said "It is very hard to find an EU regulation of significance that has been forced on an unwilling British minister who voted against it”) and then left out the whole FF discussion about why the 2 polemics are both distortions. I quote the summary of the article you have taken the quote from:

In sum, it is correct that UK government ministers have sometimes been outvoted over EU laws, and the UK government has clearly voted ‘No’ on some issues that some sections of the British population think are important.

In terms of the total volume of laws passed, the proportion of times the UK government has been on the “losing side” is small at about 2% since 1999. In recent years the UK has been losing a lot more votes, and now loses a higher proportion of votes than other members.

[BigLadonOS]

Oh my Lord. BL, all you have done is exrtracted the 'Leave argument quote' from the full fact doc I shared (aiming to get balance and perspective into the discussion) and left out both the 'Remain argument quote' (which said "It is very hard to find an EU regulation of significance that has been forced on an unwilling British minister who voted against it”) and then left out the whole FF discussion about why the 2 polemics are both distortions. I quote the summary of the article you have taken the quote from:

In sum, it is correct that UK government ministers have sometimes been outvoted over EU laws, and the UK government has clearly voted ‘No’ on some issues that some sections of the British population think are important.

In terms of the total volume of laws passed, the proportion of times the UK government has been on the “losing side” is small at about 2% since 1999. In recent years the UK has been losing a lot more votes, and now loses a higher proportion of votes than other members.

So what you are saying then is that you agree with me that the UK's voice holds no power within the EU like Germany and France do.

In every one of the so called laws the UK have been on the winning side of (95%) by your count it is a fact that if we had voted no or even abstained then those laws would have passed anyway as not 1 single law made inside the EU has hinged on how the UK voted. The UK's vote is akin to a piece of confetti in a box full of confetti.

[KerrAvon]

Monetary policy regarding the Euro but it does not mean we do not have to follow guidelines set out by the EU regarding spending etc it just means we can keep the pound thats all.

No that isn't correct. As well as keeping the pound, we retain control of our monetary policy:

From Protocol 15: The United Kingdom shall retain its powers in the field of monetary policy according to national law.

Later in the protocol: The United Kingdom shall endeavour to avoid an excessive government deficit.

Pretty unequivocal don’t you think? We retain our powers over monetary policy in accordance with UK law and ‘shall endeavour’ rather than ‘shall’ avoid excessive government debt.

[KerrAvon]

And you know this for a fact how?

Because I have a working knowledge of EU and international law and have taken the trouble to read the relevant parts of the Lisbon Treaty rather than trawling the internet for sites that agree with a Leave or Remain stance.

[ragingpup]

So what you are saying then is that you agree with me that the UK's voice holds no power within the EU like Germany and France do.

In every one of the so called laws the UK have been on the winning side of (95%) by your count it is a fact that if we had voted no or even abstained then those laws would have passed anyway as not 1 single law made inside the EU has hinged on how the UK voted. The UK's vote is akin to a piece of confetti in a box full of confetti.

What I am saying, when it all boils down to it, is that the EU make very, very little difference to domestic politics. I see pros in the trade deals from a financial point of view, and that is a very big pro after 40 years of inter twined trading. But I can see cons too, as animals article discussed. I can stand a leave with a deal that lessens the risk. What I find difficult to swallow are loaded arguments distorting actual facts. Sometimes ignorantly, sometimes willfully. In actual fact, apart from making us a poorer, the amount of which remains to be seen, but all sides agree will be poorer. But apart from that, there will be little, and most likely, no actual difference in any other way

[KerrAvon]

Do you mean the same way that remain are using the scare tactics as fact when really they have no clue?

Also we are signed up to quite a lot of things that if passed in the EU would tie us up in those things and that is a fact it is not merely guess work as you suggest it is.

Under May we are signed up in principle of forming an EU army and again this is not fiction it is a fact.

Also if we did try to stop austerity with a GDP at 2.2% we would be breaking EU law as it states in the laws of the EU that 1.6% is where all member countries must be before austerity measures can be stopped. Weather or not they would fine is up for debate but the fact is they are the rules.

Sorry I have just read the up to date rules which state that GDP has to be over 3% before austerity laws in the EU are forced upon us and as we are only 2.2% of GDP you are correct that we can stop austerity whenever we would like to.

I think you mean the budget deficit/GDP ratio? 2.1% was the UK figure for 2017/18. The ONS prediction for 2018/19 is 1.2%. That compares with a ratio of over 10% in 2010.

You haven’t mentioned the second element of the EU guidance on government debt, which says that the national debt should not exceed 60% of GDP. The UK ratio has not been below 60% since 2010. It was 85% at the last count, but is thankfully falling. That compares with Greece at 176%.

What exactly are you saying is the penalty for failing to meet the EU guidance?

[great_fire]

So many lies have been told by the EU, how can you believe anything they say?

They've wanted a federal Europe right from the beginning but said that they only wanted a trading block so when they say there isn't going to be an EU army, they're not going to make everyone use the Euro, there's not going to be a United States of Europe I don't believe them frankly.

[BigLadonOS]

I am not going to answer any of these arguments again because you are looking at what is written as fact and that it will always be fact but you are missing the whole point of what Brexit is about and why we wanted to be rid of it.

If we end up staying in the EU you will learn that what is written down on paper will have no baring on what is actually going to happen but more fools you for believing the sh1te that comes out of Brussels.