O/T:- Impressed with the leadership [The UK Party Politics Thread]

[Elite_Pie]

Yes mate .... extremely rude. Just remember whatever they do ...... they'll never make it, it's in their DNA - poor unfortunate souls.

I don't know if you realise it shipmate, but by siding with the likes of seriouspie simply to get at me you are aligning yourself with the hard right.

I would suggest that considering the job your wife does, it might not be the best course of action.

[Elite_Pie]

With respect , they aren't maintaining it, they are paying lip service to it.

That may or may not be the case, but the point is that their leaders are offering sensible advice. When the advice becomes vague, people will ignore it much more readily.

[seriouspie]

Assuming that people apply common sense and liaise with their employer, yes. Why is it difficult?

It isn't mate ......... whatever your political leaning it's been made clear. EP is currently suffering from an attack of anti Tory syndrome which he appears to catch quite regularly.

[jackal2]

You certainly make more sense than anyone else on the right here, but I think a big mistake the government made early on was advising us not to go out rather than telling us not to go out, which is what they did after a while.

For better or worse I think the initial reluctance to enforce a lockdown reflects the type of society in which we live. British/English Governments are not used to being so authoritarian and fear a public backlash if they are. Yes we have laws we have to follow and taxes we have to pay, but wherever possible the state relies on strongly advising the public what to do, rather than ordering them to do things. Even after the lockdown was enforced, I suspect the powers that be were quite surprised by just how well people initially adhered to it, how effective it was, and how long it has been sustained.

We now seem to be back to the advisory stage, which given the earlier failure seems highly irresponsible. At least Scotland and Wales have maintained the sensible strategy.

I think it's inevitable rather than irresponsible. After an impressive period of adherence I think the public's consensual support for the total lockdown has been gradually slipping over the past two weeks, which in effect make its virtually impossible to enforce. Regardless of what the Scottish and Welsh Governments say, I suspect the same 'slippage' is probably happening there, so you reach a point where you either have to return to a policy of allowing some freedom tempered by advice, or maintaining draconian measures longer than the public are willing to tolerate or listen.

The only thing you might say is that Nicola Sturgeon is 'covering her back' a bit more politically by not officially admitting that the next 'phase' is already underway. I suppose she's giving herself the option of notionally absolving herself for any relaxation in the lockdown and consequent spike in cases. I suppose she could say it's not her fault if people don't do what they are told!

[pingu_pie]

For better or worse I think the initial reluctance to enforce a lockdown reflects the type of society in which we live. British/English Governments are not used to being so authoritarian and fear a public backlash if they are. Yes we have laws we have to follow and taxes we have to pay, but wherever possible the state relies on strongly advising the public what to do, rather than ordering them to do things. Even after the lockdown was enforced, I suspect the powers that be were quite surprised by just how well people initially adhered to it, how effective it was, and how long it has been sustained.



I think it's inevitable rather than irresponsible. After an impressive period of adherence I think the public's consensual support for the total lockdown has been gradually slipping over the past two weeks, which in effect make its virtually impossible to enforce. Regardless of what the Scottish and Welsh Governments say, I suspect the same 'slippage' is probably happening there, so you reach a point where you either have to return to a policy of allowing some freedom tempered by advice, or maintaining draconian measures longer than the public are willing to tolerate or listen.

The only thing you might say is that Nicola Sturgeon is 'covering her back' a bit more politically by not officially admitting that the next 'phase' is already underway. I suppose she's giving herself the option of notionally absolving herself for any relaxation in the lockdown and consequent spike in cases. I suppose she could say it's not her fault if people don't do what they are told!

The whole Protect the NHS thing didn't last long then, did it.

Hey, I went out and clapped them a few times, but I'm a bit bored so it's time to go back outside.

Wonder how the healthcare heroes will feel about having to risk their lives treating people who don't apply Pies4u's common sense - one of my favourite oxymorons, that.

[jackal2]

The whole Protect the NHS thing didn't last long then, did it. Hey, I went out and clapped them a few times, but I'm a bit bored so it's time to go back outside.

On a personal level I've been adhering to the lockdown rules very diligently and continue to do so. I've found it relatively easy because I actually really enjoy a significant amount of solitude. This particular Jackal isn't a pack animal, but I'm probably atypical!

Human beings generally are social creatures and there was always going to come a point when adherence to the lockdown started to waver. I don't think for one moment that most of those waverers have suddenly thought "Sod our doctors and nurses, I don't care about them anymore". They've simply reached a point where the mental/physical toll of isolation is making them consciously or subconsciously lose their discipline, if only to a degree. A Government therefore has to deal with the reality of human nature, or suppress it by becoming ever more draconian, which isn't a favoured option in western democratic cultures.

[optipez]

The whole Protect the NHS thing didn't last long then, did it.

Hey, I went out and clapped them a few times, but I'm a bit bored so it's time to go back outside.

Wonder how the healthcare heroes will feel about having to risk their lives treating people who don't apply Pies4u's common sense - one of my favourite oxymorons, that.

The original aim of the lockdown was to flatten the curve to stop the NHS being swamped. The government have managed that , have set a five degree scale, shown us we're hovering between 3-4 and given a provisional timetable for opening the country up.
At the end of the day there's no cure so we will have to live with the risk for the foreseeable future.
The idea we all stop in basically forever or until a vaccine comes along isn't sustainable. So while we're all grateful for and show our appreciation of the NHS and other workers it is now incumbent on us to take some risk but at the same time be sensible in our dealings.
Seems fair enough to me.I
Sadly like everything else on here it's gone down the tram lines of left v right.

[Pies4u]

The whole Protect the NHS thing didn't last long then, did it.

Hey, I went out and clapped them a few times, but I'm a bit bored so it's time to go back outside.

Wonder how the healthcare heroes will feel about having to risk their lives treating people who don't apply Pies4u's common sense - one of my favourite oxymorons, that.

It probably is, good for you.

Back in the real world, and this is also in response to Elite's concerns re: clarity, the whole scenario is uncertain and it is not sensible to set out a precise, day by day strategy - as the PM said, it is subject to variation depending upon the changing circumstances. All the Gov't can do is set the framework, they can't force businesses to operate or dictate who should be at work and when, that is a matter for every business to determine themselves. It may have escaped your notice Pingu but hundreds of thousands of people have been at work for the past 7 weeks - some may have been producing, packing, distributing and/or delivering goods to you. Employers and employees communicate, it may seem weird to you but that is what they do. My 40+ years experience in business, in various industries, is useful for some things.

So, common sense, (seeing how much you like that phrase), suggests that no one will simply just show up at 6.00 am without knowing if their workplace is open for business or if they are required "on shift"! You simply can't have the detailed level of precision from the PM that some critics appear to expect.

It is not "sudden" either, every aspect of the media has been telling us for the past week what was coming! Plus, as others have indicated, there has to be a gradual easing of restrictions otherwise there will be nothing to come back to & the future prospects for anyone will be beyond dire.

I quite like listening to people who have never had any discernible accountability or responsibility for critical decision making telling everyone what is wrong but struggling to tell us what is actually right. There is quite a lot of that about it would seem.

[Elite_Pie]

I quite like listening to people who have never had any discernible accountability or responsibility for critical decision making telling everyone what is wrong but struggling to tell us what is actually right. There is quite a lot of that about it would seem.

Bullshyte. You don't have the slightest clue on the level of "discernible accountability or responsibility for critical decision making" that other posters may or may not have had do you? None at all. You just believe they have never had any because you want to.

[Elite_Pie]

On a personal level I've been adhering to the lockdown rules very diligently and continue to do so. I've found it relatively easy because I actually really enjoy a significant amount of solitude. This particular Jackal isn't a pack animal, but I'm probably atypical!

Human beings generally are social creatures and there was always going to come a point when adherence to the lockdown started to waver. I don't think for one moment that most of those waverers have suddenly thought "Sod our doctors and nurses, I don't care about them anymore". They've simply reached a point where the mental/physical toll of isolation is making them consciously or subconsciously lose their discipline, if only to a degree. A Government therefore has to deal with the reality of human nature, or suppress it by becoming ever more draconian, which isn't a favoured option in western democratic cultures.

Again I agree with most of that, but I just think that if the government had stuck with the "stay home" message for longer then bit by bit a few people would have started to ignore it. Now they have issued this vague "stay home if you can but be careful if you go out" advice then a lot of people will start to ignore it. The evidence from Germany is that if you lift the lockdown too early or quickly then cases will start rising again. I hope that doesn't happen here.