OT. Schools...normality and Coronavirus.

[ramAnag]

All getting a little agitated guys and there seems to be some degree of contradiction.

Firstly, GP...teachers haven’t been ‘furloughed’ on the basis that they’re still working. Those that have the technology are providing online lessons. Others are providing a service - child minding rather than teaching I suspect - for vulnerable pupils and the children of key workers and there are still reports to be written and future lessons and schemes of work to be planned.

You GP are speaking from the position of someone who can work from home. You have, on at least two occasions, described your anxiety at the way people behave in your ‘corner shop’ and yet you are critical of teachers who are reluctant to work in a relatively small room with up to six**** other people.

Swale, you are equally critical. The impact on you appears to be exactly the same as it is on me...no restaurants, gigs, theatres, holidays etc.
Other than that you say it has made ‘no difference’...you too have the privilege of working from home although the impact of the virus does appear to have brought forward your retirement. Fairly significant I would have thought.

You say ‘so it’s okay’ for the other workers you mention to be put at risk knowing full well that I have defended them throughout this crisis. I don’t think it’s ‘alright’ for any worker to be made to work without the necessary protection and I’m not about to concede that teachers should be added to that at risk list.

You also say that the risk of children passing on the disease is minimal. How do you know that? It’s really not like you to be anything other than intelligently sceptical where government advice is concerned.
The government, understandably from an economic point of view, wants schools to reopen and says that children aren’t effective carriers.
In mid March when the schools were closed the advice from the government was that children were often asymptomatic carriers. That’s the same government who described the risk to care homes as minimal even though common sense said it wasn’t. But even if children themselves are not top of the ‘at risk’ list, those fif**** children return to at least fif**** homes at the end of each day where they will come into contact with, on average, at least three - often more - other individuals. I can’t see how that doesn’t vastly increase the risk of the virus spreading.

If you look on here there are intelligent posters expressing various levels of anxiety. Andy being very cautious where shopping is concerned and using the minimal contact method of ‘click and collect’. Ram59 verging on the paranoid about people coming within an ‘armslength’ of him in his Brum supermarket and even mac has told us how he virtually ran out of a supermarket, reporting the incident on his way, when he encountered a woman with a bad cough.

I don’t blame any of them, or GP, for their caution/anxiety...but if bright and intelligent people are so aware of the need for such precaution how much sense does it make for schools to return at this time?

Finally...there is worldwide disagreement on the reopening of schools. In Germany, the Netherlands and Denmark they have reopened or will soon be doing so. In Italy and New Jersey they are closed until at least September.
Even if UK schools do reopen they are simply not able to do so fully. People HAVE to socially distance and schools - like aeroplanes, theatres, cinemas, buses, trains, shops etc - are not sufficiently spacious to allow a full return.
So what can they offer in the short term? Part time attendance for some year groups against a background of an alleged 35% of secondary pupils’ parents and up to 49% of primary school parents who are not prepared to allow their children to return.

Why the rush? I appreciate the economic concerns but, as a grandparent and the father of a teacher I have huge concerns. Wearing my long abandoned ‘school management hat’ I also totally understand the concerns of heads and school governors.

P.S. Andy, can you explain to the obsessives who own this forum that ‘te-en’ isn’t a rude word?

[MadAmster]

Perhaps the solution is to withdraw furlough payments in respect of those who will not return to work. The option of return to work or lose your job may change a few perspectives. And for benefits purposes this would be treated as a voluntary giving up of one's job....

If identifying as a woman can allow you to compete in women's sport why doesn't feeling it's unsafe to return to work during a pandemic count as an equally valid point? Especially if you are in the "at risk" group.

[Geoff Parkstone]

There comes a point when, for the greater good of society, we have to move forward and face covid head on or we will all be the loss. That means returning to, as close as possible, the new future.

Now I don't pretend to understand the risk analysis model related to a limited return of primary schools. But equally nor does rA, notwithstanding his far greater experience of schools "in the good old days" pre 2020.

That's why we have experts, that's why we look at the limited experience in other countries. You may question how good those experts are and their ability to form sound conclusions but all I know is that they know more than anyone on this forum does.

And surely the Germans have been held out by some to have got more things right than wrong and have been praised for their approach. So if its a good risk for them why not us.

This is a lose-lose for government, and I cannot help but feel that if it had been decided toeave schools shut down till September, rA would have been chuntering on about how the schools should reopen as other European nations had.

The reality is that it's not about childrens education, they are getting substitute learning, its about childcare enabling people to get back to work and kick-start the economy before it's too late. It's a small step and seems to be assessed as a low risk step.

Re "Teacher furlough" I know several teachers and TA' s who have been furloughed, so may have assumed more were than you think rA. Who knows? But my point on furlough was more wide ranging than just teachers - maybe the only way to avoid furlough addiction is to invalidate the "health and safety card"

And what the hell self identified women athletes has to do with the price of fish I simply don't understand.

In summary, this whole return to work issue is much wider than teachers, they are just the thin end of the wedge. If everyone squeals when reasonably asked to return to work in a judicious way then we might as well prepare for a return to the dark ages or start to dig our own graves

[Ram59]

If you look on here there are intelligent posters expressing various levels of anxiety. Andy being very cautious where shopping is concerned and using the minimal contact method of ‘click and collect’. Ram59 verging on the paranoid about people coming within an ‘armslength’ of him in his Brum supermarket and even mac has told us how he virtually ran out of a supermarket, reporting the incident on his way, when he encountered a woman with a bad cough.

Compared with brushing past up to 20 stangers every time I go shopping, I would be a lot less 'paranoid' about the prospect of teaching a class of up to 15 children (10 year olds,I disagree with 5 year olds going back) in a suitably sized room and a controlled environment. Most small classrooms won't have 15 children in them.

Every school is different and will have less or more issues. My children's old primary school will have no problems space wise.

Even in schools where the classrooms are quite small, there will be plenty of classrooms, hall or gyms free to be used. Generally speaking, most of the staff should be capable of taking a lesson at primary school level.

[Geoff Parkstone]

If identifying as a woman can allow you to compete in women's sport why doesn't feeling it's unsafe to return to work during a pandemic count as an equally valid point? Especially if you are in the "at risk" group.

I would imagine (and hope) that teachers in the clinically vulnerable groups would not be expected to return to work.. But I suspect most will have retired by 70, if not 10 years earlier

[Trickytreesreds]

Morning all.

It is a fact of life, that many people in jobs do so with an effect of risk or injury/death on a daily basis.
Whilst every effort is made to protect, no risk can ever be eliminated.
As a miner, I was injured a few times. Never lost a limb though, or (obviously) my life. I know people who did.

Corona has brought that day to day risk to everyone in any job now.
The odds of dying from it, are still lower than being killed by lightning or a meteorite.
Remove the vulberable from the equation and move on, as best we can.
If we don't, many more in the long term are going to suffer or die from a variety of reasons, with the economic doom coming.
As I mentioned earlier. Already stated that they expect around 20- 25 000 cancer patients to now die due to lack of medical care.
They expected hospitals to be sinking and people dying in corridors. It hasn't happened.

I still expect a second wave as other countries are starting to do so. Like it or lump it, this virus will have its way.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Bloidyy hell, Swale Tricky and myself all essentially agreeing on a subject. It took a global pandemic to make it happen, but happen it has

[Ram59]

I've just been in contact with my friend who's on the teaching staff at a local primary school.

The head called a meeting of all staff to discuss the measures about the restarting of the school. 5 teachers refused to even attend the meeting. Of those that did when asked to do 3 days a week, a number refused to work Mondays and Fridays.

To say that my friend was pulling her hair out, was an under statement.

[mistaram]

Morning all.

It is a fact of life, that many people in jobs do so with an effect of risk or injury/death on a daily basis.
Whilst every effort is made to protect, no risk can ever be eliminated.
As a miner, I was injured a few times. Never lost a limb though, or (obviously) my life. I know people who did.

Corona has brought that day to day risk to everyone in any job now.
The odds of dying from it, are still lower than being killed by lightning or a meteorite.
Remove the vulberable from the equation and move on, as best we can.
If we don't, many more in the long term are going to suffer or die from a variety of reasons, with the economic doom coming.
As I mentioned earlier. Already stated that they expect around 20- 25 000 cancer patients to now die due to lack of medical care.
They expected hospitals to be sinking and people dying in corridors. It hasn't happened.

I still expect a second wave as other countries are starting to do so. Like it or lump it, this virus will have its way.

The odds of dying from it are still lower than being killed by lightening or a meteorite Have those two things killed 35,000 in the UK these last 10 weeks . If so nobody has told the press

[Geoff Parkstone]

I've just been in contact with my friend who's on the teaching staff at a local primary school.

The head called a meeting of all staff to discuss the measures about the restarting of the school. 5 teachers refused to even attend the meeting. Of those that did when asked to do 3 days a week, a number refused to work Mondays and Fridays.

To say that my friend was pulling her hair out, was an under statement.

Ah, they want long weekends eh? Maybe they need extra time off to go to the shops or the hairdressers to watch real people put some effort in for the country's future......